Giving up Cubing for Lent

No need to rant about fundamentalists on a forum like this...
Disbelieving in evolution doesn't automatically make one a fundamentalist and doesn't automatically mean they are ignorant.
Anyway Please enjoy the following video.
Yeah he's the Dick to the Dawk to the PhD,
he's smarter than you he's got a science degree!
The Dick to the Dawk to the PhD,
he's still smarter than you he studied biology!
 
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Get off the computer. Go for a walk. You will feel happier. :)


ON TOPIC:
I am not giving up cubing for Lent.
 
However, I do have a really hard time coming up with a christian that have really, really tried to disprove his belifes and yet coming out of it all as a christian.

EDIT: As I said, I was once a christian, and when I finally did question my belifes in an honest way it was all suddenly very, very clear.

Hang on, why are we trying to disprove our belief? What if my belief is that God is out there, just watching and not interfering in the lives of the living? How am I supposed to challenge this, or find reason to disbelieve it?
 
while protestantism is all of the different denominations that disagreed with certain aspects of catholicism, and thought they could offer "better christianity"....It's annoying things like this about catholicism that made people want to change the religion a little bit to make it a bit more convenient. That's where protestant religions came from.

While I realize I'm just an uneducated high school kid, I have thought about some of this a lot. My personal beliefs have come straight from the Bible (and I'd be lying if I said my parents and church didn't influence me), and I try to keep it that way. I interpret it how I see it, without the Catholic church's ideas. So I've always considered myself a Protestant, but not because I've just gotten rid of "annoying things" from Catholicism, but I don't believe in the things it seems to me they added to Christianity.

But it's all how you interpret it, and I'm sure I've left several holes in my statement. I can only go with what I believe.
 
Disbelieving in evolution doesn't automatically make one a fundamentalist and doesn't automatically mean they are ignorant.

Noone has said that disbeliveing evolution is ignorant, but I can imagin people have stated that being religious is (I have not).

There is a difference between atheists and evolutionists. Atleast outside the US.

Reread the italic three times for your own sake.
 
He would have to define "really, really" too.
Really really may just mean if you haven't come out not a Christian than you haven't really really questioned yet. You've just really questioned, or maybe just questioned.
Anyway, Dene, he said Christian, and so a belief in that kind of God would probably fall outside of Christianity. Jesus Christ is the central figure in Christianity and being God and man, is God interfering in the lives of the living.
@Johan444
I'm well aware that there's a difference, thank you tho.
 
However, I do have a really hard time coming up with a christian that have really, really tried to disprove his belifes and yet coming out of it all as a christian.

EDIT: As I said, I was once a christian, and when I finally did question my belifes in an honest way it was all suddenly very, very clear.

Hang on, why are we trying to disprove our belief? What if my belief is that God is out there, just watching and not interfering in the lives of the living? How am I supposed to challenge this, or find reason to disbelieve it?

I think his point is that he doesn't know a christian who has challenged anything they were taught. It isn't a question of whether or not you can disprove it, the real question is, have they taken time to ponder what they believe in, instead of what they're told to believe in.
 
Being able to produce something in the lab is completely different from it happening in nature... If anything it would prove intelligent design by showing that a huge amount of intelligence must be put into setting up an experiment just right to get 2 of the 4 nucleotides created out of your mud mixture.
Well, it took billions of years to happen in nature according to science, didn't it? I think few scientists would be prepared to wait that long. Besides, since we don't actually have access to what Earth was like 3 billion years ago, there's no way to set up these experiments without "a huge amount of intelligence", but this doesn't in any way prove intelligent design, just that finding out details about the past is really darn hard when they're not written down somewhere. Imagine if all Civil War records were lost and you were trying to recreate all the battles' results by simulating them o_0

I don't really see why people like to insist so heavily that abiogenesis is something completely separate from evolution except that they want to bracket off the part of life's origins that has the most holes so that they can still say that evolution is strong.
But they're not really one theory, even if many Christians think they are. I can't understand why people like to insist so heavily that abiogenesis is somehow part of evolution. Abiogenesis is the answer to "how did life start" and evolution is the answer to "where did all these differences between species come from"; creation might answer both questions in one fell swoop, but that isn't necessary. There's nothing contradictory in believing one without the other, and while I have no clue how a scientific person could disagree with the theory of evolution I think it is quite reasonable to disagree with the theory of abiogenesis. Unfortunately science doesn't allow for supernatural explanations so there is no alternate theory for abiogenesis. Personally I think the most reasonable religious approach is to believe God seeded the planet with life so evolution could start (accepting Genesis as storytelling rather than literal historical fact).

The truth is that abiogenesis is almost completely guesswork (because of the difficulty of replicating conditions back then, of course) whereas both microevolution (changing a trait within a species) and macroevolution (changing species over a longer period of time) are extremely strongly supported by evidence. Microevolution has even been shown to happen in a controlled laboratory setting.

Most Christians believe the obvious scientific evidence that creatures to change and evolve in response to their surroundings but that those changes never result in the creation of a completely different kind of organism. Like a land mammal isn't going to evolve into a sea mammal but you can get different types of dogs, bacteria becoming immune to medicine and so on. This Microevolution is normally confined to species or the biblical word "kind" for different kinds of animals.
But how can you conclusively define what kind of animal something is? Recall the heap paradox (is 1000000 grains of sand a heap? yes? how about 999999? etc.) - when a group of organisms change species there are pretty much always some kind of intermediate forms that aren't clearly one or the other. In every small change it won't look like the two organisms are of different types, but if you add in a huge number of changes it might not be so obvious. You can tell fish and land animals apart, but what about the lungfish? What about amphibians? It's not like we only had sea animals and suddenly land animals popped up, but rather that some sea animals slowly adapted to become more and more able to take advantage of land, until eventually at least one group of animals was so comfortable on land that they didn't need to go back to the sea at all (and would eventually evolve out of their now-vestigial sea adaptations). Distinctions such as "land vs sea" are never really clear-cut in the same way you can never objectively say the exact number of sand grains you need to make a heap.

Anyway, even if such huge chances are hard to imagine, it's possible to imagine two species developing from one by considering two separate groups of the same species living in different environments. Remember that one of the main definitions of whether two species are different is whether they cannot reproduce and make fertile offspring. So suppose that one of your groups stays mostly the same, because they're fine in their environment, but the other group had a hard time and has gone through a huge number of adaptations in the several millions of years it's been in the other environment. Now they meet up. It's quite reasonable that enough small changes could have taken place that the two sets of DNA are just incompatible - then you have a new species.
 
However, I do have a really hard time coming up with a christian that have really, really tried to disprove his belifes and yet coming out of it all as a christian.

EDIT: As I said, I was once a christian, and when I finally did question my belifes in an honest way it was all suddenly very, very clear.

Hang on, why are we trying to disprove our belief? What if my belief is that God is out there, just watching and not interfering in the lives of the living? How am I supposed to challenge this, or find reason to disbelieve it?

I think his point is that he doesn't know a christian who has challenged anything they were taught. It isn't a question of whether or not you can disprove it, the real question is, have they taken time to ponder what they believe in, instead of what they're told to believe in.

Pretty much this.

What single thing/idea/proof is there that outweighs everything that speaks against christianity?
 
And yes, I've already had lots of people unsubscribe because I said I was not religious. A while ago, someone told me that although he loves all my videos that he could not respect me anymore because I'm not a christian. It has nothing to do with me thinking highly of my opinion. My point is that religious people will get offended just because you say "Nah, I don't beleive that.", which is my point. There's no reason to get offended, is what I am saying.

And of course, here you are, offended, picking apart my post for everything you can possibly disagree with.

Now you're just making generalizations. Just because some of your religious subscribers believe or say one thing doesn't mean all "religious people" believe the same way. That's like saying because I saw a gang that was all black people, all black people must be members of gangs.
 
Being able to produce something in the lab is completely different from it happening in nature... If anything it would prove intelligent design by showing that a huge amount of intelligence must be put into setting up an experiment just right to get 2 of the 4 nucleotides created out of your mud mixture.
Well, it took billions of years to happen in nature according to science, didn't it? I think few scientists would be prepared to wait that long. Besides, since we don't actually have access to what Earth was like 3 billion years ago, there's no way to set up these experiments without "a huge amount of intelligence", but this doesn't in any way prove intelligent design, just that finding out details about the past is really darn hard when they're not written down somewhere. Imagine if all Civil War records were lost and you were trying to recreate all the battles' results by simulating them o_0

I don't really see why people like to insist so heavily that abiogenesis is something completely separate from evolution except that they want to bracket off the part of life's origins that has the most holes so that they can still say that evolution is strong.
But they're not really one theory, even if many Christians think they are. I can't understand why people like to insist so heavily that abiogenesis is somehow part of evolution. Abiogenesis is the answer to "how did life start" and evolution is the answer to "where did all these differences between species come from"; creation might answer both questions in one fell swoop, but that isn't necessary. There's nothing contradictory in believing one without the other, and while I have no clue how a scientific person could disagree with the theory of evolution I think it is quite reasonable to disagree with the theory of abiogenesis. Unfortunately science doesn't allow for supernatural explanations so there is no alternate theory for abiogenesis. Personally I think the most reasonable religious approach is to believe God seeded the planet with life so evolution could start (accepting Genesis as storytelling rather than literal historical fact).

The truth is that abiogenesis is almost completely guesswork (because of the difficulty of replicating conditions back then, of course) whereas both microevolution (changing a trait within a species) and macroevolution (changing species over a longer period of time) are extremely strongly supported by evidence. Microevolution has even been shown to happen in a controlled laboratory setting.

Most Christians believe the obvious scientific evidence that creatures to change and evolve in response to their surroundings but that those changes never result in the creation of a completely different kind of organism. Like a land mammal isn't going to evolve into a sea mammal but you can get different types of dogs, bacteria becoming immune to medicine and so on. This Microevolution is normally confined to species or the biblical word "kind" for different kinds of animals.
But how can you conclusively define what kind of animal something is? Recall the heap paradox (is 1000000 grains of sand a heap? yes? how about 999999? etc.) - when a group of organisms change species there are pretty much always some kind of intermediate forms that aren't clearly one or the other. In every small change it won't look like the two organisms are of different types, but if you add in a huge number of changes it might not be so obvious. You can tell fish and land animals apart, but what about the lungfish? What about amphibians? It's not like we only had sea animals and suddenly land animals popped up, but rather that some sea animals slowly adapted to become more and more able to take advantage of land, until eventually at least one group of animals was so comfortable on land that they didn't need to go back to the sea at all (and would eventually evolve out of their now-vestigial sea adaptations). Distinctions such as "land vs sea" are never really clear-cut in the same way you can never objectively say the exact number of sand grains you need to make a heap.

Anyway, even if such huge chances are hard to imagine, it's possible to imagine two species developing from one by considering two separate groups of the same species living in different environments. Remember that one of the main definitions of whether two species are different is whether they cannot reproduce and make fertile offspring. So suppose that one of your groups stays mostly the same, because they're fine in their environment, but the other group had a hard time and has gone through a huge number of adaptations in the several millions of years it's been in the other environment. Now they meet up. It's quite reasonable that enough small changes could have taken place that the two sets of DNA are just incompatible - then you have a new species.
I need to be less lazy and type out more fully what I actually believe...
By saying set up in the lab I was referring to experiments that have to be set up a certain way for them to come out right. I hate to keep bringing up only the same point but I haven't really studied evolution in awhile. But from what I've heard scientists have claimed to have been able to solve the problem of chirality in the lab but basically that means nothing if the lab isn't set up just like nature is...
As for abiogenesis and evolution I know their definitions and I know why they are different. I'm just saying I think that its odd that people get so heated at religious people when they even hint that they may be the the same thing. You have to admit that they are at least related theories and in a naturalistic world evolution would impossible without abiogenesis.
So religious people are wrong for believing in God but scientists are not wrong for believing in many things that are completely guess work? (When you read all my posts assume that I am a moderately intelligent university student not a backwoods redneck)
We've discussed in the forums before about evolution and transitional species and unless there has been some new information I don't think we need to discuss it again. It seemed to come down with how many transitional species are needed to convince us that they actually are proof of evolution and not just a coincidence. To me the transitional species between land and sea mammals seemed to all basically be whales already and weren't enough in number to convince me, but then again I'm more prone not to believe in evolution, you on the other hand are more prone to believe in evolution so for you it was convincing evidence.
The definition of species as animals that are able to mate and reproduce fertile offspring together which is why I included that some people make up some kind of additional classification that Genesis calls "kinds" that is different than species as it is hard to argue that no species will split into two after a relatively small number of changes. I can imagine two scientists in the lab selectively mating something like flies with a quick reproductive cycle until they can no longer mate just to stick it in the face of creationists when that is clearly missing the point.
 
Belief doesn't require proof. Your belief that Christianity is false can't be proven either. Whether or not you believe in God requires some degree of faith either way. If you believe there is no God, you are putting faith in the evidence you interperet as arguments against God. Someone else could look at the same evidence and see it as an argument for God. Not all Christians blindly believe everything the preacher says on Sunday. Religion isn't only for mindless sheep, but it does tend to attract them.
 
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I'm just saying I think that its odd that people get so heated at religious people when they even hint that they may be the the same thing. You have to admit that they are at least related theories and in a naturalistic world evolution would impossible without abiogenesis.
No I don't. They're related theories in the same way cooking and digestion are related. Even if there was a divine being who simply created creatures from scratch, evolution would still occur, and millions of years later we would still be able to conclude that it had happened.

It seemed to come down with how many transitional species are needed to convince us that they actually are proof of evolution and not just a coincidence. To me the transitional species between land and sea mammals seemed to all basically be whales already and weren't enough in number to convince me, but then again I'm more prone not to believe in evolution, you on the other hand are more prone to believe in evolution so for you it was convincing evidence.
Well, the problem is that land animals (as a group) evolved from sea animals over a long period of time, so in that stage you'd be likely to see transitional species. However, all mammals are descended from land-based organisms, and the gap between land mammals and sea mammals is pretty small, so you're unlikely to find any obviously transitional species. Humans can swim, as can many other mammals, so the first 'sea mammals' were probably just animals who were good at swimming and realized there was a lot of food in the ocean. If a group of creatures spend most of their time swimming, it's easy to imagine that through time they would evolve more desirable traits for the ocean, such as sleeker and hairless bodies.

The definition of species as animals that are able to mate and reproduce fertile offspring together which is why I included that some people make up some kind of additional classification that Genesis calls "kinds" that is different than species as it is hard to argue that no species will split into two after a relatively small number of changes. I can imagine two scientists in the lab selectively mating something like flies with a quick reproductive cycle until they can no longer mate just to stick it in the face of creationists when that is clearly missing the point.
Is it, though? If you accept that one species can eventually become a similar one, through gradual tiny changes in traits, I don't think it's a big leap to accept that through gradual small changes in *species* animals from one 'kind' can eventually become animals from another 'kind'. It's the same idea, with gradual changes adding up to a huge change over time. And as I said before, grouping animals into types (even if the types are ones like mammal, reptile, etc) isn't so easy when some species seem to straddle the line, so even though (say) a typical mammal and a typical reptile may not look too similar, a reptile-like mammal species and a mammal-like reptile species may be only a few species changes away from each other.
 
Alright, the thing I don't understand about this thread is WHY we're arguing. Although I find it interesting and engaging to argue about politics and/or religion, I don't see the point of doing it in a thread like this. Sure, Phoenix might have been ignorant to post a thread that is religiously based, but the way he posted it shouldn't have started a religion debate. If your not a part of Christian denomination that celebrates Lent, why would you post in this thread in the first place? I find the the person who posts something like that more ignorant than the thread. If your not a Lent-celebrator, stay out of the thread. It's as simple as that. It's very stupid and foolish to sit here and argue over your beliefs. I, personally am Catholic. Go ahead, flame me. I really don't care. Why does every thread that has the smallest amount of religion in it's roots turn in to a stupid debate with bans, flames, and caps lock. All Phoenix wanted to do was relate with others who celebrate Lent. Is there anything wrong with that? This entire debate is VERY stupid and foolish, and should have never started.
 
I think the original intention of this thread was for people who are giving something up for lent to share it. The "arguements" have nothing to do with the question in the first post at all. Just my 2 cents CAD.
 
There is no such thing as "goo to you" theory. It's garbage.

"Goo to you" basically refers to the theory that all living things formed from single cell organisms (which were the result of abiogenesis). It's a combination of abiogenesis and evolution. We could call it "single-celled organism to you", but it's not as catchy. anyway, I think most of the people on the forum probably understood what I was getting at.

I'd just like to point out again the ignorance in "Well hai, there's two kindsa evolution... small changes, and goo 2 u! lol"
Yeah, most of the ignorance in that statement is the poor spelling and grammar. Your posts have more of that than mine.

And it's stunningly, and embarassingly obvious that you have never been inside a biology classroom and awake at the same time.

[edit] Okay, maybe I'll take that back, because "small changes in a species" is a (I guess) reasonable summary of what natural selection is about.
So it's obvious, but you realize later that you're wrong? Hmm....must not have been so obvious then.

Sorry if I sounded condescending, I didn't mean to.
With the quote above, and saying that it'll be like explaining to a 4 year old, I can't see how you didn't mean to be condescending.

Well I'm probably not smarter than you, but I'd like to know exactly what it is you do that makes you think a guy working on a biology degree doesn't know more about biology than you do. What arrogance.
Believe it or not, you can get knowledge of stuff outside a college degree. Not everyone know everything about a topic. Besides, just working on a biology degree doesn't mean anything. It's actually getting the degree that counts. Many people switch majors and don't end up being experts in their current fields. And just being a biology major doesn't give you a free pass, especially the one you tried to take by not giving any real facts in your first argument.

This bickering is going to go on forever unless someone grows some balls and just drops it.
The Christians can stop arguing when the Rapture occurs, and the evolutionists can stop arguing when they grow some balls (through small changes over millions of years).

I think Lofty is taking college classes in religion, so you shouldn't argue with him on anything religious, since he's taking religion classes, and therefore must obviously know more than you, and therefore wins the argument with no discussion.

Like Lofty said, it's your whole attitude. You could've stated your arguments in a straightforward manner, but instead try to argue with a bunch of rants and accusing anyone who responds that they're offended by you.
 
Alright, the thing I don't understand about this thread is WHY we're arguing. Although I find it interesting and engaging to argue about politics and/or religion, I don't see the point of doing it in a thread like this. Sure, Phoenix might have been ignorant to post a thread that is religiously based, but the way he posted it shouldn't have started a religion debate. If your not a part of Christian denomination that celebrates Lent, why would you post in this thread in the first place? I find the the person who posts something like that more ignorant than the thread. If your not a Lent-celebrator, stay out of the thread. It's as simple as that. It's very stupid and foolish to sit here and argue over your beliefs. I, personally am Catholic. Go ahead, flame me. I really don't care. Why does every thread that has the smallest amount of religion in it's roots turn in to a stupid debate with bans, flames, and caps lock. All Phoenix wanted to do was relate with others who celebrate Lent. Is there anything wrong with that? This entire debate is VERY stupid and foolish, and should have never started.

I think the original intention of this thread was for people who are giving something up for lent to share it. The "arguements" have nothing to do with the question in the first post at all. Just my 2 cents CAD.

+42
 
I think Lofty is taking college classes in religion, so you shouldn't argue with him on anything religious, since he's taking religion classes, and therefore must obviously know more than you, and therefore wins the argument with no discussion.
I'm working on a religion degree. That means I know more about religion than all of you! And if just working on a degree counts I also have worked on Math, Physics and Chinese degrees, I am now an expert in many fields and am going to change my major a few more times to become a master in many more fields :-)
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@qqwerf
Can happen and did happen are two completely different things. I'll admit that I find the theory of evolution somewhat appealing. That life changes over time through mutation and response to the surroundings is a pretty cool thing. However do I think that it actually did happen? And do I think it plays out as nicely in the real world as it sounds in theory? No. From the primordial soup of millions of years ago to us? I just don't buy it. I know millions of years is a long time but come on, thats a lot of ground to cover. A lot of very small probability events in a very hostile environment.
But then again I'm not a young earth creationist or any specific kind of creationist either. I question both sides of it equally and no one has yet convinced me.
Recently I received a link my friend in medschool who I mentioned earlier with a list of like 5 or 10 things that science can't explain that mentioned a whole book about similar things. I think stuff like that is interesting. We don't really talk about all the shortcomings of science often. Not that I'm anti-science, I love it. Its just good to be real and open with what we actually have.
 
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