CubingUSA Nationals 2017 - Fort Wayne, Indiana (July 7-9)

[Rcuber123]

Not really, with all the weird stuff people can have on their feet, and the sweat, i know I wouldn't be happy using the timers that someone else just had their feet on

Or u can just put a peice of paper or a plastic bag on the timer during feet

 

[TheCoolMinxer]

Or u can just put a peice of paper or a plastic bag on the timer during feet

shown here, with cling film:

 

[GenTheSnail]

You must not have been paying very close attention then

Well, considering I was DNFing my FMC attempt and warming up for Feet, I didn't have much time to notice all that logistical chaos .

You forget that there's setup and take down time for feet. You have to take away the tables, pack up the stack mats and set up more stackmats (which you had to buy specifically for feet, and can't be used for anything else).

Why do you have to buy different stackmats for Feet? I don't see that in the regulations under Feet solving. Or is this just strongly suggested to not gross people out? Whats wrong with wiping down the timers afterwards?

Don't forget that this is going to take a few staff members, which just a few can slow down everything a good deal (think not having enough judges.)

But with so few people able to compete, why would you need more than five or six judges? And if you can't even muster that many people,

1e) Each event must have one or more judges.

• 1e1) A judge is responsible for executing the procedures of the event.
  • 1e1a) A judge may judge multiple competitors simultaneously at the discretion of the WCA Delegate, as long as the judge is able to ensure that all WCA Regulations are followed at all times.
• 1e2) Every competitor must be available for judging. ...

Just call up people; they have to come according to the regulations.

Lets assume 1:15 to run feet (which is very conservative in my estimate.)

US Nationals 2016 gave the only round of Feet thirty minutes. 1:15 is a bit high for less than thirty people + set up/take down.

Plus 2:30 is fairly strict qualifying time, which seems to not be what they're going with.

Erm not really. Sub 2:30 isn't hard at all.

Spoiler: Here is some proof

https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/race-to-sub-x-3x3-w-feet.61459/

... I recently picked up feet (~30 solves ever), and just got my first sub 2 (1:56.91). ...
Round: 1, Race to Sub: 2:00, Cube: QiYi Thunderclap, Method: ZZ. Mean: 2:34.18
1. 2:17.64, 2. 2:59.43, 3. 2:25.47
... But this is the first time I've really done feet, so progress should be fast ... Well, off to do an ao100 w/f ...

4 days later...

Round: 2, Race to Sub: 2:00, Cube: QiYi Thunderclap, Method: ZZ. Mean: 1:46.01
1. 1:41.92, 2. 1:47.05, 3. 1:49.06
The Ao100 clearly helped a lot. I hope I can get my mean to sub-1:30 before I graduate from sub-2. Progress has been fast, but I feel like it's going to slow down soon.

6 days later

Round: 3, Race to Sub: 2:00, Cube: QiYi Thunderclap, Method: ZZ. Mean: 1:28.58
1. 1:21.61, 2. 1:34.81, 3. 1:29.33
Yay! Sub-1:30. This was pretty good; I don't normally get many sub-1:30 solves. Also, I don't have an accurate ao100 because most of the solves are still in the 1:50-2:30 range, but progress is so fast that I'm basically sub-1:40. But I actually haven't done a lot of feet lately, got caught up in doing some OH.

Over the course of a little more than a week, I dropped quite a bit.

That's the equivalent of 1 round of clock, over 1 attempt of FMC, 3x3 round 2 +7x7 finals, etc. For the amount of people that care about it, it's just not worth it. That's not even all the problems with feet.

Again, the amount of people who care about an event is no reason not to hold it. More people compete in Feet than both BigBLDs, so by that logic, Feet should be held and not BigBLD. I'm not saying to not hold BigBLD though.

I don't know why Nationals is held, or what it's motto is. I assume it has something to do with fair and equal condition, competitive atmosphere and the national titles.
Why then wouldn't someone be allowed to be called US National Champion in 3x3x3 With Feet?

 

[Kit Clement]

Again, the amount of people who care about an event is no reason not to hold it. More people compete in Feet than both BigBLDs, so by that logic, Feet should be held and not BigBLD. I'm not saying to not hold BigBLD though.

I don't know why Nationals is held, or what it's motto is. I assume it has something to do with fair and equal condition, competitive atmosphere and the national titles.
Why then wouldn't someone be allowed to be called US National Champion in 3x3x3 With Feet?

Competitors for each event the past few years (when feet was held):

US Nationals 2015: 35 feet, 27 4BLD, 24 5BLD, 49 MBLD
US Nationals 2014: 39 feet, 39 4BLD, 26 5BLD, 59 MBLD
Worlds 2013: 65 feet, 59 4BLD, 52 5BLD, 106 MBLD
US Nationals 2012: 34 feet, 25 4BLD, 12 5BLD, 43 MBLD

Hard to claim that more people participate in feet than BigBLD when the unique number of competitors in BigBLD beats feet in MBLD alone. It may be true that feet is more popular than 4BLD and 5BLD events individualy, but taking into account how restrictive these events are by their difficulty, it would seem that there is likely a far larger proportion of people that compete in BigBLD among those who are "able" compared to feet.

But yes, without taking these considerations, the amount of people isn't exactly the best argument for holding/not holding the event for many reasons. However, there is a significant lack of competition for the event -- national champions from 2014 and 2015 had a time more than double the world record average, and were even more than 10 seconds above the NR average. When an event like this also has significant costs unique to that event and is an event our staff dislike judging/scrambling for, it doesn't seem necessary for our country to hold. US Nationals has no responsibility to name national championships in every event. We saw the logistics too much to bear for the lack of competitiveness in feet in the USA for it to be worth titling a national champion.

 

[Torch]

Comments on Feet logistics:

We held Feet at Marietta Mystery today. It was certainly not a "logistical nightmare"; all we had to do to change from normal setup to Feet setup was move the chairs from one side of the table to the other and put the timers on the ground. With the help of all the staff it took less than 60 seconds.

To change from Feet to normal setup, we only had to reverse the process and wipe down everything with Clorox wipes. I'm not going to get all "OMG but feet have less bacteria than hands guyz" on you, but regardless of your opinions on the cleanliness of feet, everything was cleaned thoroughly.

The logistical hassle of Feet is massively overblown. Clock is harder to hold because of lack of accurate, quick scramblers and keeping the puzzles from falling over.

 

[GenTheSnail]

Competitors for each event the past few years (when feet was held):

US Nationals 2015: 35 feet, 27 4BLD, 24 5BLD, 49 MBLD
US Nationals 2014: 39 feet, 39 4BLD, 26 5BLD, 59 MBLD
Worlds 2013: 65 feet, 59 4BLD, 52 5BLD, 106 MBLD
US Nationals 2012: 34 feet, 25 4BLD, 12 5BLD, 43 MBLD

Hard to claim that more people participate in feet than BigBLD when the unique number of competitors in BigBLD beats feet in MBLD alone. It may be true that feet is more popular than 4BLD and 5BLD events individualy, but taking into account how restrictive these events are by their difficulty, it would seem that there is likely a far larger proportion of people that compete in BigBLD among those who are "able" compared to feet.

Ahh, my mistake.

More people compete in Feet than both BigBLDs

I was only looking at ranking numbers from WCA successes. It is correct, but irrelevant information.
Also, I referred to BigBLD as 4BLD and 5BLD, not MBLD. It seems that is the incorrect terminology.

When an event like this also has significant costs unique to that event and is an event our staff dislike judging/scrambling for, it doesn't seem necessary for our country to hold.

Do people not like scrambling Feet cubes because they have touched feet? Solution=buy a box of 100 disposable gloves for <$5. This could probably last for another Nationals.
Idk why people don't like judging feet. If they don't want to touch the cube, they can also wear gloves when they check to make sure the cube is solved.
Problem solved?

US Nationals has no responsibility to name national championships in every event.

In the most respectful way possible, what exactly is the official point of holding US Nationals?

 

[biscuit]

Ahh, my mistake.

I was only looking at ranking numbers from WCA successes. It is correct, but irrelevant information.
Also, I referred to BigBLD as 4BLD and 5BLD, not MBLD. It seems that is the incorrect terminology.


Do people not like scrambling Feet cubes because they have touched feet? Solution=buy a box of 100 disposable gloves for <$5. This could probably last for another Nationals.
Idk why people don't like judging feet. If they don't want to touch the cube, they can also wear gloves when they check to make sure the cube is solved.
Problem solved?


In the most respectful way possible, what exactly is the official point of holding US Nationals?

The biggest thing is the big comp, but an official national champion is crowned in the events.

 

[AlexMaass]

Yeah, at Exeter which had all WCA events, it wasn't hard to hold, especially since there was few people doing it, I think it could definitely be held at Nationals, but I guess you guys want to sacrifice it for more time which is kinda understandable.

I strongly believe it should be held, it is US Nationals and it should have all WCA events, I can't help but feel like the organization team just decided okay feet is stupid and smelly lets not hold it. It can be easily be done during spare time like BigBLD in a seperate room spread out across the day, and with strict cutoffs.

The logistical hassle of Feet is massively overblown. Clock is harder to hold because of lack of accurate, quick scramblers and keeping the puzzles from falling over.

^ agreed, best thing to do in my experience is to go and get a sheet of paper folded in half and put that over the puzzle, and grasp the puzzle and paper by the top and just carefully put it on top of the mat, also getting as many scramblers as possible is a good thing to do, at Exeter it was kinda slow but with concurrent events and not that many people doing clock, it wasn't that bad

someone make a robot clock scrambler pls

 

[Kit Clement]

Do people not like scrambling Feet cubes because they have touched feet? Solution=buy a box of 100 disposable gloves for <$5. This could probably last for another Nationals.
Idk why people don't like judging feet. If they don't want to touch the cube, they can also wear gloves when they check to make sure the cube is solved.
Problem solved?

In the most respectful way possible, what exactly is the official point of holding US Nationals?

We've done this each of the years we've done feet at Nationals. It's still an event our staff always complain about when we assign jobs to them for it. Given the amount of trouble this event caused us (especially in 2015) along with the lack of competitiveness and general sense of apathy toward feet in the US for this event as of late, our team decided to not run this event. That's not to say that it's gone forever -- if we see that the popularity and/or competitiveness for this event increases significantly, we could consider having it again as an event. But as it stands, we feel that the time we have in our schedule for US Nationals is being well allocated to the desires of our competitors in the USA.

 

[tx789]

We've done this each of the years we've done feet at Nationals. It's still an event our staff always complain about when we assign jobs to them for it. Given the amount of trouble this event caused us (especially in 2015) along with the lack of competitiveness and general sense of apathy toward feet in the US for this event as of late, our team decided to not run this event. That's not to say that it's gone forever -- if we see that the popularity and/or competitiveness for this event increases significantly, we could consider having it again as an event. But as it stands, we feel that the time we have in our schedule for US Nationals is being well allocated to the desires of our competitors in the USA.

Lack of competitiveness is a much better reason not to hold an event than the officials don't like running it. However I do think larger National and, Continental Championships, and Worlds should host every event. Smaller countries may not have the interest or people.

Spoiler

New Zealand Nationals is holding every event this year a first (in Oceania).

I feel that big comps are going to have to have qualifications soon since comps can't get bigger and bigger. How likely is it having a comp outside in the countryside, where people are camping? That seems the only place that could host a 3000 people comp.

These qualification times aren't that restrictive.

 

[FastCubeMaster]

In the most respectful way possible, what exactly is the official point of holding US Nationals?

There was a discussion just like this one on the Australian Nationals 2016 thread where clock was not held as an event. Someone asked the exact same question as you did and if I remember correctly, Dene has an answer for that

Edit: The argument starts on post #117 on page 6, Dene has some things to say.

Edit 2: I shouldn't be lazy: https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/australian-nationals-2016-sydney.61580/page-6

 

[GenTheSnail]

We've done this each of the years we've done feet at Nationals. It's still an event our staff always complain about when we assign jobs to them for it.

Is staff volunteer or hand picked? Either way, by joining staff, you should know that you might have to judge or scramble for Feet. Complaining about something you agreed to do seem very childish.
Do you at least assign the jobs for Feet based on how well they tolerate the event or just who is available?
Wouldn't you be able to create the schedule so that those tolerating staff members are free?

Given the amount of trouble this event caused us (especially in 2015)

Aside from staff complaints and "logistics", can you elaborate on the trouble that Feet has given the team?

That's not to say that it's gone forever -- if we see that the popularity and/or competitiveness for this event increases significantly, we could consider having it again as an event.

Specifically, how significant a "popularity and/or competitiveness" increase would be needed to bring Feet back to US Nats?

stuff

You didn't answer my last question: What exactly is the official point of US Nationals?
Does this answer not exist, or did you just forget to address the question?

 

[Kit Clement]

Is staff volunteer or hand picked? Either way, by joining staff, you should know that you might have to judge or scramble for Feet. Complaining about something you agreed to do seem very childish.
Do you at least assign the jobs for Feet based on how well they tolerate the event or just who is available?
Wouldn't you be able to create the schedule so that those tolerating staff members are free?

We invite people to volunteer. I agree that it's a bit annoying to complain, but calling it childish doesn't make organization any easier.

But again, this is a minor reason -- the popularity/competitiveness was a much stronger one in our decision, as well as apathy for the event even among many top feet cubers in the US.

You didn't answer my last question: What exactly is the official point of US Nationals?
Does this answer not exist, or did you just forget to address the question?

"But as it stands, we feel that the time we have in our schedule for US Nationals is being well allocated to the desires of our competitors in the USA."

 

[Torch]

Number of sub-2:30 Feet competitors in the US per year:

2009: 1
2010: 7 (600% increase)
2011: 12 (71% increase)
2012: 13 (8% increase)
2013: 28 (115% increase)
2014: 35 (25% increase)
2015: 42 (20% increase)
2016 (so far): 60 (43% increase)

Number of US competitions holding Feet:
2009: 1/45 (2%)
2010: 4/48 (8%)
2011: 2/52 (4%)
2012: 4/53 (8%)
2013: 9/54 (17%)
2014: 5/66 (8%)
2015: 9/99 (9%)
2016 (so far): 16/114 (14%)

While the data is pretty fuzzy pre-2013, looking at the last 4 years, it's pretty clear that the more Feet is held as an event, the more people get competitive times in it. Despite the fact that Nationals did not have Feet this year, the increase in local competitions holding Feet was enough to give us the largest increase in "fast" Feet competitors (by the gross numbers, not percentage wise) ever.

I believe that holding Feet at this first Nationals with qualifying times is very important to the future of the event. Previously, many competitors/organizers might have said, "I'll get my Feet solves in at Nats", and never hold it themselves in their regions. It's not good or healthy for any event to be considered a "Nationals-only" event. (A lot of people think about BigBLD the same way, which is why I'm glad more competitions will start to hold that as well for Nats qualifying.) If Nationals were to hold Feet with a 2:30 qualifying time, this would be a big incentive for competitions across the country to hold Feet, and for competitors to put some serious practice into it.

There would not be a significant burden on the Nationals schedule by doing this. Since all competitors would be sub-2:30, everyone would get through their means quickly (scrambling time for Feet is negligible, another plus for holding it). The top 16 would probably be sub-1:20, meaning the final could be a quick, 15 minute affair.

The prizes should be on par with the other side events, and there should be a 16 person final like the other side events. (A higher registration fee is justifiable however.) If the organizers of Nationals continue to treat Feet like a fourth-class event, it is no surprise that the competitors will do so as well.

Additionally, there is the problem alleged that the staff of Nationals do not like to do jobs related to Feet. The solution to this is very simple: Only assign staff who compete in Feet to scramble, run and judge for it. Over 25% (16/60) of the US Feet competitors who are sub-2:30 were staff at least one of the last 2 years at Nationals. Since they will do their solves during the staff rounds, they will be able to run the event themselves. This also means that less time will need to be scheduled for Feet Round 1, since so many of the competitors will be staff, who have already done their solves in the staff rounds.

There are some other minor reasons to hold Feet. It is a big hit with spectators, who are always an important part of any Nationals. I do feel it is also important for the organizers of Nationals to try their hardest to include every event, whether they like it, hate it, think it should be removed, or any other opinion. For example, I do not like Clock at all, I think it is logistically difficult to hold, and there are legitimate arguments that it should be removed entirely as an event. If you put me in charge of Nats, however, I can guarantee you that Clock would be an event, with the same prizes and number of rounds as comparable events.

Again, I repeat my main point: As Nationals is taking this new leap forward, it is vital that all events be given the same opportunity to succeed. As organizers begin to hold different events to allow competitors from their region to compete at Nats, Feet is currently being left behind in the dust. Please give Feet the chance to stand on a fair playing field with the rest of the events.

 

[One Wheel]

Number of sub-2:30 Feet competitors in the US per year:

2009: 1
2010: 7 (600% increase)
2011: 12 (71% increase)
2012: 13 (8% increase)
2013: 28 (115% increase)
2014: 35 (25% increase)
2015: 42 (20% increase)
2016 (so far): 60 (43% increase)

Number of US competitions holding Feet:
2009: 1/45 (2%)
2010: 4/48 (8%)
2011: 2/52 (4%)
2012: 4/53 (8%)
2013: 9/54 (17%)
2014: 5/66 (8%)
2015: 9/99 (9%)
2016 (so far): 16/114 (14%)

While the data is pretty fuzzy pre-2013, looking at the last 4 years, it's pretty clear that the more Feet is held as an event, the more people get competitive times in it. Despite the fact that Nationals did not have Feet this year, the increase in local competitions holding Feet was enough to give us the largest increase in "fast" Feet competitors (by the gross numbers, not percentage wise) ever.

I believe that holding Feet at this first Nationals with qualifying times is very important to the future of the event. Previously, many competitors/organizers might have said, "I'll get my Feet solves in at Nats", and never hold it themselves in their regions. It's not good or healthy for any event to be considered a "Nationals-only" event. (A lot of people think about BigBLD the same way, which is why I'm glad more competitions will start to hold that as well for Nats qualifying.) If Nationals were to hold Feet with a 2:30 qualifying time, this would be a big incentive for competitions across the country to hold Feet, and for competitors to put some serious practice into it.

There would not be a significant burden on the Nationals schedule by doing this. Since all competitors would be sub-2:30, everyone would get through their means quickly (scrambling time for Feet is negligible, another plus for holding it). The top 16 would probably be sub-1:20, meaning the final could be a quick, 15 minute affair.

The prizes should be on par with the other side events, and there should be a 16 person final like the other side events. (A higher registration fee is justifiable however.) If the organizers of Nationals continue to treat Feet like a fourth-class event, it is no surprise that the competitors will do so as well.

Additionally, there is the problem alleged that the staff of Nationals do not like to do jobs related to Feet. The solution to this is very simple: Only assign staff who compete in Feet to scramble, run and judge for it. Over 25% (16/60) of the US Feet competitors who are sub-2:30 were staff at least one of the last 2 years at Nationals. Since they will do their solves during the staff rounds, they will be able to run the event themselves. This also means that less time will need to be scheduled for Feet Round 1, since so many of the competitors will be staff, who have already done their solves in the staff rounds.

There are some other minor reasons to hold Feet. It is a big hit with spectators, who are always an important part of any Nationals. I do feel it is also important for the organizers of Nationals to try their hardest to include every event, whether they like it, hate it, think it should be removed, or any other opinion. For example, I do not like Clock at all, I think it is logistically difficult to hold, and there are legitimate arguments that it should be removed entirely as an event. If you put me in charge of Nats, however, I can guarantee you that Clock would be an event, with the same prizes and number of rounds as comparable events.

Again, I repeat my main point: As Nationals is taking this new leap forward, it is vital that all events be given the same opportunity to succeed. As organizers begin to hold different events to allow competitors from their region to compete at Nats, Feet is currently being left behind in the dust. Please give Feet the chance to stand on a fair playing field with the rest of the events.

Historically 2:30 is probably good for comparison, but I'm inclined to think it's a little high for a "competitive" threshold. I average a little over 3:00, my pb single is 2:24, and I only stand a chance of being competitive because there are few competitors. I think if you want really competitive you'll have to set the limit at 2:00 or even 1:45. And if it gets to be a popular event it will have to move down further, to 1:30 or even 1:15.

 

[AlexMaass]

"But as it stands, we feel that the time we have in our schedule for US Nationals is being well allocated to the desires of our competitors in the USA."

so if we have a huge demand for unofficial "pen" then you would hold it?

 

[Torch]

Historically 2:30 is probably good for comparison, but I'm inclined to think it's a little high for a "competitive" threshold. I average a little over 3:00, my pb single is 2:24, and I only stand a chance of being competitive because there are few competitors. I think if you want really competitive you'll have to set the limit at 2:00 or even 1:45. And if it gets to be a popular event it will have to move down further, to 1:30 or even 1:15.

I don't think the purpose of the Nats cutoff is to restrict it only to the most competitive solvers; 40 seconds is not very competitive for a 3x3 average! I think 2:30 is a reasonable cutoff for Nationals, because it's not so high that someone could do 5 practice solves and instantly be sub-cutoff, but it also doesn't require you to pour weeks upon weeks of practice into it. As long as Feet remains a mean of 3 event, there will be a much higher chance of messing up your mean and getting a lot slower than what you average at home, so I think it's good to make the cutoff rather lenient.

 

[One Wheel]

so if we have a huge demand for unofficial "pen" then you would hold it?

Perhaps more significantly: is there an empirical standard that could be met to demonstrate sufficient interest in feet to warrant holding it as an official event at nationals 2018? e.g. a certain number of competitors signing a petition, or volunteering to scramble and judge for feet, or something like that.

 

[aybuck37]

nationals 2018?

Oh wow I almost forgot that nationals is next year

 

[Torch]

Perhaps more significantly: is there an empirical standard that could be met to demonstrate sufficient interest in feet to warrant holding it as an official event at nationals 2018? e.g. a certain number of competitors signing a petition, or volunteering to scramble and judge for feet, or something like that.

I sure hope it's not too late for Nationals 2017! Otherwise I've been wasting my time here.