Blindfold Cubing Research Study

irinaatcolumbia, I think the difference here is that when you talk to chess or music prodigies, you're talking to people who have distinguished themselves from a very large population with their achievements. There are many millions who play musical instruments or play chess, and only a very small percentage of them can claim to be prodigies. But with cubing, we still don't have a very large population, and it's all very new, so we don't know how good people can really be yet.

I think that's an excellent point. Lars Petrus a couple years ago said something similar about how times were progressively getting faster, but all of us cubers still have lives/school/work/etc. to worry about. If ever there was a professional cuber, whose living it was to get fast times and win tournaments, we would probably see all current records blown away by a very large margin. I think that still holds true even today, with times as fast as they are right now.

If you performed what would be a very cruel experiment and locked up a bunch of average young children in rooms with pianos (and occasionally a piano teacher) and told them that in order for them to get their next meal, they must practice to meet their teacher's satisfaction, might you not wind up with a whole bunch of piano prodigies? I think you really might. Of course, it would be unconscionably cruel, but I really suspect it would work.

I do agree that such an experiment, although cruel, would probably have an extremely high chance of producing nearly all the children as piano prodigies. I think the same experiment could be done to produce world class prodigies at nearly anything. Normal prodigies have a very strong desire to succeed, and use that as their motivation. Arguably everyone has a very strong desire to survive, so this cruel experiment turns your survival motivation into motivation to do well at whatever task you are forced to do. Not to say that I condone this experiment or something like it, but I do believe it would have a high success rate for producing child prodigies.

Chris
 
Mike, perhaps "prodigy" was not the best word to use. In chess, I am thinking of somebody who maintains a consistent 1800-1900 USCF rating, playing a dozen or so tournaments a year. Somebody like that. Not a prodigy, but definitely somebody who is more than just passable. There is no equivalent rating system in music, so I'll drop that example.

There are a lot of learning theory implications here.

I think your experiment would not work with chess, I really don't. Because there is a binary outcome to chess, it would be a better experiment. Playing music to a teacher's satisfaction is still somewhat subjective, don't you think? If you lock a bunch of 1200 rated players, and told them that in order for them to get their next meal they must practice and beat a 1900 rated player, well, you would end up with a lot of dead 1200 rated players.

Besides, I've seen your youtube videos, and I am really not able to accept that what you can do is anything but extremely unusual.
 
Mike, perhaps "prodigy" was not the best word to use. In chess, I am thinking of somebody who maintains a consistent 1800-1900 USCF rating, playing a dozen or so tournaments a year. Somebody like that. Not a prodigy, but definitely somebody who is more than just passable. There is no equivalent rating system in music, so I'll drop that example.

There are a lot of learning theory implications here.

I think your experiment would not work with chess, I really don't. Because there is a binary outcome to chess, it would be a better experiment. Playing music to a teacher's satisfaction is still somewhat subjective, don't you think? If you lock a bunch of 1200 rated players, and told them that in order for them to get their next meal they must practice and beat a 1900 rated player, well, you would end up with a lot of dead 1200 rated players.

Besides, I've seen your youtube videos, and I am really not able to accept that what you can do is anything but extremely unusual.

You might be right about chess. I worked on chess pretty much when I was in high school, but never really got any good. (At my best, I was probably about 1600, pretty rotten. Recently, when I play against computers they tend to rank me around 1400 - even worse.) My big problem there, though, was probably that I almost never had any good opponents to learn from. The difficulty here is that it is hard to construct a training program based on proper rewards. How would you train chess? You can't just have a 1200 player go directly after a 1900 player - that's too much improvement to even know where to begin. There have been some good training program ideas out there for chess, but none that have really been nicely proven. Probably some of the Russian schools have some, but I don't know that much about them. (One of my favorites that I really wanted to try, but never quite got motivated enough to do, was this one: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skittles148.pdf. It would be interesting to see if it really worked - perhaps you could try my experiment with chess with this?) On the other hand, some training programs for piano have been shown to be quite successful; what I'm saying is that this whole idea requires a good training program to be successful.

Playing music to a teacher's satisfaction is subjective, but if you had what would be considered a traditional "good teacher" (say, one who had taught more than one prodigy before at some point or another), I believe if that teacher just used their normal judgments for teaching, they could coax great things out of most any student with "proper motivation" like this. I'm a part-time piano teacher myself, and it seems like most anyone can learn surprisingly much given the proper motivation.

As for my YouTube videos, the big difference between me and other big cube BLD solvers (other than how slow I am at 3x3x3 speedcubing, which is admittedly a big difference :)) is the fact that I have done at least 3 4x4x4 BLD attempts and at least 3 5x5x5 BLD attempts every single week without fail for over a year (and often times I have done many more than that). And now I've been doing at least one 6x6x6 BLD and one 7x7x7 BLD attempt each week since they were available. That gives me MUCH more experience than almost anyone else in the world at it. (I know of only Chris Hardwick and István Kocza who might have done more, and I guess I'm not sure how much Rafal Guzewicz or Rowe Hessler have practiced.) So I suspect the difference here between me and others is simply motivation. For some weird reason, I feel compelled to practice big cubes BLD lots. If others did, they might be much better than me. People like Ville Seppänen and Alex Cook have gotten better than me at big cubes BLD with far less practice than me.

I think that back when I started, instructions for learning how to do big cubes BLD were scattered and somewhat hard to understand, so there was a barrier to learning how to do it. If someone were to take time to develop a training program for solving big cubes BLD, I suspect we'd see lots of people doing it.

(If in thinking of my videos, you were thinking of the juggling one, again this is just possible because I've practiced juggling for 30 years, so I'm passable at it. Most people in the cubing community aren't jugglers, so I have an advantage in that the "event" is tailor-made for me to succeed at. If you had an event requiring playing bass with one hand while solving a cube with the other, Dan Cohen and Rama Temmink would naturally seem impossibly good at it, since they already worked on both skills individually for so long. And with just a little practice, I'm sure Macky (who is also a skilled juggler) could outdo my juggling and solving behind the back video.)

Whew - sorry to write so much. :)
 
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This study really sounds interesting, as most studies of the cube only are about the math.

I also think that the reason you would expect to have special abilities if you know how to solve the cube are part of the culture icon that the rubiks cube stand for. It's often used as a metaphor for an impossible mission or a long task. So the idea of doing it blindfolded really sounds like a super human thing to do. But it's really more a memory sport and really has little to do with speed solving.

So I would be more interested in a study of speed solvers. The fast guys are able to see a better solution faster than the average cuber. And they are faster at recognizing which algorithm to use next. It will also be interesting to study how people remembers algorithms. Some uses mainly muscle memory and can't write the algorithm without doing the turns and others are able to dictate the moves, team blindfold solving.
 
This is a fascinating thread. Mike and Chris, I always enjoy reading your posts, they are invariably thoughtful and insightful and this is no exception. I have a brief comment and a question.

While reading the comments of the posters stating that solving a cube, blindfolded or otherwise, is not an extraordinary feat, I was reminded of a thought I had while showing my younger brother how to solve a cube back in April. I'm also of the opinion that it isn't a tremendous feat, but you have to *want* to solve it. That desire could be a pre-qualifying trait make the set of cubers a self selecting population. Look at some of the kids (I use that term in paternal form, not a pejorative) on this forum. Johannes is 16 years old and programming stuff I wouldn't have imagined doing at that age. Lucas and others constantly amaze me with their understanding of mathematics that far outstripped what I knew as a senior in HS taking calculus. This is an exceptional group of young adults.

The question (slightly off topic) is for Chris. As an older cuber struggling to break a sub-30 average, I also feel I suffer from bad practice habits. Most importantly, I tend to solve idly, without focus on my weaknesses, e.g. look ahead. Would you mind sharing some of your "bad practice habits" so I can avoid them, too? Any tips on specific "good habits" your worked on? (I guess that's two questions)

Irina, it certainly sounds like a very interesting study. What do you think of my conjecture that cubers self select? Would that influence any sort of "control group" selection? Please keep us all informed about your progress, it certainly seems very, very cool.
 
brunson, I was trying to hint at what you're suggesting in my comments. I do think there's a self-selecting that goes on with a lot of these kinds of things, exactly as you describe. Why is it that some people want to do these sorts of things more than others do? I think that if you can provide sufficient motivation, almost anyone can do it. For instance, I think you could walk up to anyone on the street (well, over the age of 8 or so - for one thing they have to be old enough to actually care about the money!) and offer them $1,000,000 if they can learn in the next 6 months to solve a cube blindfolded, while providing the help of a good blindfold solver, and over 90% of the population would be able to do it, given that motivation. But if you take away that rather heavy incentive, the number of people who would do it goes down drastically.

(Edit: now that I think about it, it would probably be less than 90%, simply because greater than 10% would probably believe they had no chance of doing it, and therefore wouldn't try. So you'd also have to be able to convince the person that it was possible in order for them to do it.)

Oh, and brunson, even though you asked Chris (and not me, since I'm in as bad shape as you on speedsolving), I thought I'd offer this: Shaden Smith just noticed last weekend that I almost always use wrist turns for U2, instead of fingertricks. I'm good about using fingertricks for U and U', but I use wrist turns for U2. I actually looked for that sort of thing, and was completely blind to it until last weekend. Now I'm having to relearn everything - F2L insertions, OLLs, PLLs. I'm several seconds slower now, but I really think that once I get it back up to speed, I'm going to cut several seconds off very fast.
 
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hr.mohr - excellent suggestions! At this point, I am primarily interested in the memory task, which is why blindfold cubing is my focus. The memory task involved here is incredible, based on what we know about working memory limitations. So, I want to look at that. Speed solving and algorithm selection are extremely interesting too, and have amazing implications for many important topics in cogntion and learning. I'd love to look at that, or read about somebody who has.

Brunson - self selection is an important problem is social science. Ok, I accept that cubers probably self select. Almost every interesting population does, which makes the problem of determining causation nearly impossible. So, we just ignore it. There is still a lot of valuable insight to be gained from studying the problem solving process, the working memory limitations, and the neurological differences.

Mike - yes, I accept your argument of motivation. I still think that you, and others who can solve the cube blindfolded, are performing a difficult and unique task, and I suspect that you will (as a result of it, or because of it) demonstrate neurocognitive differences from the non-blindfold-cubing population. And I'd very much like to look inside your head to see if that's the case.

- Irina
 
That's fantastic! I was thinking that fMRI would be easier, because EEG is time dependent, and the results are too hard to analyze. But their images look great. I wish I knew what they were saying.

The only EEG studies I've seen done on cubers were from the 80s, where they were looking at epileptic seizures that were induced by solving the rubik's cube (and solving hard math problems, as well as some other activities). I wonder what question these researchers were looking at. Not that just looking at a cool brain isn't enough.
 
The question (slightly off topic) is for Chris. As an older cuber struggling to break a sub-30 average, I also feel I suffer from bad practice habits. Most importantly, I tend to solve idly, without focus on my weaknesses, e.g. look ahead. Would you mind sharing some of your "bad practice habits" so I can avoid them, too? Any tips on specific "good habits" your worked on?

[off topic]
Hi Brunson,

Some of the stuff I do is the same that Mike has already mentioned. I used to use wrist turns to do U layer turns, as Mike mentioned. So far I've pretty much completely weaned myself off of doing that. Now I am working on always using "good" triggers, and never "bad" triggers.

For example, say I have to do R U2 R' to insert a pair. A "bad" way to do this, which is how I used to do this all the time, was R then flick U with my index finger then U again with my middle finger, then do R' with the wrist. A "good" trigger for this is to do R with the wrist, thumb turn U', then using my left hand index trigger U' again, then do R' with the wrist. An even better way to do this, if edge controlling allows it, is to do U' with the right thumb, then R then U' again with the left index, then R'.

It's things like that, which during the course of a solve will be several instances where a couple tenths of a second were lost. These add up to make the overall time slower than it could be.

For the longest time my philosophy on improvement was to use the evolution algorithm. I would change one small thing in my solving for that day, and see if the change was a good change or a bad change. If I liked the change (meaning it made my averages faster, or felt easier/better) then I'd keep it and make it my new routine. If I didn't like the change I'd ditch the idea and not revisit it.

This way works, but for one it's slow, and two it doesn't always lead to the most optimal way to do things. Also, don't just do solves over and over ad nauseum until your times get faster. I used to do that too, and I think this is one of the main reasons, if not the main reason why I was slow to improve. Now I approach it as an hour spent learning a new alg and making it subconcious is worth at least a week's worth of practicing without doing anything new, if not more. So I try to work on my algs, or my execution of my F2L ("good" triggers vs. "bad" triggers).

I know that's overall kind of vague, but to be perfectly honest this is still something I am working on to this day, so I consider myself still learning as far as this kind of practice method is concerned.

Hoped that helped at least a little, sorry if it was kind of vague but I'm still new to this myself ;-)

[/off topic]

Chris
 
I still think that you, and others who can solve the cube blindfolded, are performing a difficult and unique task, and I suspect that you will (as a result of it, or because of it) demonstrate neurocognitive differences from the non-blindfold-cubing population. And I'd very much like to look inside your head to see if that's the case.

Well, I wish I could let you look inside my head, but I live in Indianapolis, so it doesn't seem very likely. Anyway, I'm very interested in hearing the results of your study.
 
hr.mohr - excellent suggestions! At this point, I am primarily interested in the memory task, which is why blindfold cubing is my focus. The memory task involved here is incredible, based on what we know about working memory limitations.
- Irina

Well it's really nothing compared to the people that do "pure" memory sports like speed memorization of a deck of cards and the digits of pi. When you memorize the cube you dont memorize the configuration you memorize the solution in cycles. The example solve that Stefan Pochmann displays in his classic method only requires you to remember 20 images.
 
The memory task involved here is incredible, based on what we know about working memory limitations.

Wowowow... what?! I get the feeling you suffer from one of the big misconceptions about blindcubing. Please clarify: Do you think we keep a mental representation of the cube in our head and update it with every turn we make?
 
Ok Stefan, thanks for bringing that up! I was reading through the 3-cycle method for blindfold cubing (source: cubefreak.net) and I understand that it requires that the cuber visually memorize the patterns of each cycle. That's still not easy. I am slowly reading through the threads in the blindfolding section of the forum, and realize that there are variations that other people use, but there is still a component which requires the visual memorization of patterns. That's the part that I am interested in.
 
Really, blindfold is easy. I think anyone can do it with a little practice.

Obviously people who use freestyle and visual are leaugues above everyone else. Right? ;)
 
Really, blindfold is easy. I think anyone can do it with a little practice.

Agreed.

Obviously people who use freestyle and visual are leaugues above everyone else. Right? ;)

In all seriousness I'm now starting to wonder if there might be some merit to that statement. I'm interested to see the results of the study.

Chris
 
I understand that it requires that the cuber visually memorize the patterns of each cycle.
Nah... not really.

We don't think in terms of single turns. That's possible, but unnecessarily hard and takes much longer. No, we think in terms of whole turn sequences. Each having very little, very targeted effects. Using that idea, basically you can somewhat solve the cube one piece at a time. You just memorize a list of about 20 items that you read off of the scrambled cube, then blindfolded you recall that list and for each item you do something to solve it.

It's like you memorize a string of let's say 30 digits, then blindfolded you recall that list and for every "7" you wave your right hand, for every "3" you stomp with your left foot, for every "4" you nod, etc. Really, there's nothing more to it. Just memorize a list of items and recall them, doing something associated to each item. And you do know about story/loci/etc memory methods, right?

Being able to walk and talk and read and write ought to be considered much more impressive. Seriously.
 
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