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8355 - Problems with last 5 corners

sirjayjay

Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Messages
5
hi, i have read the idea about 8355 (Method comes from asia)

see here
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10158

my problem: i have finished the cube until the last 5 corners. my englisch is not so good, i think my test is written very bad. and i don't understand the tutorial of the last 5 corners (look at the Link)

could you help me? maybe with some pictures?
 
my englisch is not so good

Lol, classic. Nevermind me your english is fine. ;)

Ok so just do as the thread says.

Here's an example of the corners:

Scamble: R' D' R U' R' D R U

Look at the FRD corner, it has to go to the FLU corner.
-Do U' to set the FLU corner at FRU.
-Then do the algorithm R' D' R D until the FRU corner is solved. (you should only have to do the algorithm once)

Ok, now this is pretty obvious because the only corner left to solve is the corner that's at URB.
-Do U to set the URB corner at UFR
-Then do the algorithm R' D' R D until the FRU corner is solved. (In this case we repeat the algorithm 5 times)

I don't know if this helped or not.
 
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a little bit...

first test: it works, the cube was complete

rescramble the cube > second, third and fourth test: some "errors", one wrong edge in the middle layer and so on. what was wrong?
 
Sometimes you're left with a case that leaves two un-oriented corners. If you keep repeating the alg until the last D-layer corner is solved, then the U-layer will appear scrambled. The reason it happens is because the number of repetitions of the (R U R' U') alg you used to solve the pieces isn't exactly divisible by 6. To fix the problem do the following.

  1. When you get to the last corner don't watch the corner itself, but instead watch the rest of the cube. Repeat the R U R' U' alg until all but 2 unoriented corners are solved.

  2. Now rotate the cube so that both of the remaining two corners are in the D-layer and re-asign a solved corner to be your 'buffer' piece.

  3. Solve the two unoriented corners in the normal way. The buffer piece will go back to a solved state once both corners are solved.



Some examples:

Scramble: R U R' D R U' R' D' R U R' D' R U' R' D
  • First corner: D' (R U R' U')
  • Bring corner into buffer: D (R U R' U')
  • Second corner: D (R U R' U')*5
  • Third corner: D' (R U R' U') <-- notice, the third corner is solved but the rest of the cube is scrambled. This is because the (R U R' U') alg has been repeated only 8 times (not divisible by 6).
  • Repeat alg until there are only 2 unsolved corners: (R U R' U')*4
  • Re-assign d-layer to contain the 2 unsolved corners: x'
  • Solve the first one: (R U R' U')*4
  • Finally solve the second one: D' (R U R' U')*2
Click for animation


Scramble: D2 R U R' D R U' R' D' R U R' D' R U' R' D'
  • First Corner: D (R U R' U')
  • Bring second corner into buffer: D (R U R' U')
  • Second Corner: D (R U R' U')*5
  • Third Corner: D' (R U R' U')*5
  • Rotate cube so that 2 corners are in the D-layer: x'
  • Solve 1st unoriented corner: (R U R' U')*4
  • Solve 2nd unoriented corner: D' (R U R' U')*2 D
  • Fix bottom layer x D2
Click for animation
 
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whats about the alg-link in your first version of message? what happened?

could you make a drawing with computer oder pen and paper (and photographing)??? for the 3 situations that you mean. sometimes a have newer problems :) is it possible that i dont understand something? ok, i am tired, worked hard, i should make a break und try it a little bit later :)

my second problem is that i have to teach my girlfriend and i need to understand this method 200%, so i can teach her 100% :)
 
A little bit off-topic:
I trained a little with this method and i was able to pull a 38 sec single, there is anyone that can solve the cube real fast with this method (like sub20) ?
 
whats about the alg-link in your first version of message? what happened?
The same link is posted at the bottom of the first example.

could you make a drawing with computer oder pen and paper (and photographing)??? for the 3 situations that you mean. sometimes a have newer problems :) is it possible that i dont understand something? ok, i am tired, worked hard, i should make a break und try it a little bit later :)

Were you able to play the animations I linked to? If you watch them closely they should explain what's happening. If the animations don't work on your computer, try working through the moves I posted in the example. This page should help if you're stuck with the notation.

I've also updated the 8355 Wiki page to give more detail about how to use the method. It may be of help.

A little bit off-topic:
I trained a little with this method and i was able to pull a 38 sec single, there is anyone that can solve the cube real fast with this method (like sub20) ?
Wow, that's quite impressive actually! I think the best I've had with it is about 50 sec. Its quite a fun challenge to use this for speedsolving because there are a LOT of moves! What's your best avg of 5?
 
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Interesting Cride, that you do the last 5 step with the 4 unsolved corners in the D layer. Following the original material, I do it with those corners in the U layer. I guess your R U R' U' is faster than my R' D' R D. I'd have to play with your "upside down" method to wrap my head around it, as I've been doing 8355 the way I do it for a really long time.

For the original poster: You might try it my way (the original way) at least to understand what's going on. Cride did some really detailed explanations, but frankly I found it a bit more complicated than the way I do it. Here's an overview:

1. Position the cube with the 4 unsolved corners in the U layer and the other unsolved corner at FRD.
2. Solve each of the 4 corners by rotating U to bring the proper corner slot to FRU and then perform R' D' R D as many times as necessary to solve that corner.
3. Repeat 2 until all 4 top corners are solved.
4. Orient U so the corners and edges are in the right places.

Some of the time, that's the end and the cube will be solved. Other times you'll find several cube pieces in the middle and bottom layers that are messed up. To fix those, just do this:

1. Do R' D' R D twice. Is everything solved except for FRU and FRD? If so go to step 2. If not, do R' D' R D twice more and you should have all but those two solved.
2. Rotate the cube so that the two unsolved corners are now at FLU and FRU.
3. Do R' D' R D until FRU is solved. Should be twice.
4. Rotate the U layer to bring FLU to FRU (do a U' move).
5. Do R' D' R D until the new FRU is solved. This should be 4 times.
6. Rotate the U layer to realign the solved cube (a U move).

This method always works. There's no "diagonal case" or anything weird; it just works.

Give it a try and see what you think.

Brian.
 
I guess using the <R,D> gen alg is probably better for looking ahead, but I prefer the <R,U> version cos its sexy ;)

This method always works. There's no "diagonal case" or anything weird; it just works.

If you try solving this scramble:
U2 F' L F U L U' R U L' U' F' L' F R' F D F' U' F D' F' U' F D F' U' F D' F' U
... that's what I mean by the diagonal case. The two final corners belong to diagonally opposite ends of the cube. I guess my instructions for dealing with it were a little convoluted though, since they involved an unnecessary setup move. Yours are clearer.

EDIT: I've updated the last example, cheers Brian :)
 
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Wow, that's quite impressive actually! I think the best I've had with it is about 50 sec. Its quite a fun challenge to use this for speedsolving because there are a LOT of moves! What's your best avg of 5?

My best RAO5 is barely sub 50.

I can't see how you avoid the diagonal case.
How, for example, would you solve this scramble?
U2 F' L F U L U' R U L' U' F' L' F R' F D F' U' F D' F' U' F D F' U' F D' F' U

I would solve like this:

(y2) U {R' D2 R} U {R' D2 R} U {R' D2 R} U {R' D2 R}
L2 {L D2 L'} (y') {R' D2 R} U {R' D2 R} (y) {L D2 L'} U' L2

I used the commutator R' D2 R because i learned with this one.. but other one i like is L D' L.
The solve would be:

(y) U2 {R' D R} U { R' D' R} U {R' D R} U { R' D' R} U (z)
{L D L' U2 y R' D R U2} U {U2 R' D' R y' U2 L D' L'} U R2
 
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Sometimes you're left with a case that leaves two un-oriented corners. If you keep repeating the alg until the last D-layer corner is solved, then the U-layer will appear scrambled. The reason it happens is because the number of repetitions of the (R U R' U') alg you used to solve the pieces isn't exactly divisible by 6.

I didn't know this cycle was a multiple of 6. Interesting.

[*] When you get to the last corner don't watch the corner itself, but instead watch the rest of the cube. Repeat the R U R' U' alg until all but 2 unoriented corners are solved.

When I first read this several weeks ago I didn't understand what you meant at all. But it's been on my mind ever since and a few days ago something made sense and I did some experiments. Now I get it!

In terms of explaining this to someone who's new to 8355, it's practically impossible. I think my beginner's explanation is easier. But for someone experienced with the last 5 corners of 8355 this is a very good technique.

I'm tempted to write a long tutorial about it with examples and sample solves. For now I'm just going to throw out some key points:

1. As Cride says, the corner manipulation algorithms run in a cycle of 6. Any time you get to 6, or a multiple, or 0, the cube has the possibility of being solved, or only having two corners twisted out of place. I'm going to call this the "zero state" of the cube for lack of a better term.
2. The "normal" corner alg is R' D' R D. But, if you've done 8355 a bit, you'll know that D' R' D R also works, but runs the corner cycle in reverse. I.E., the FRU and FRD corners swap and twist in the opposite direction from R' D' R D. This can save you a ton of algs by twisting a corner clockwise (D' R' D R) instead of counter clockwise (R' D' R D), and of course makes your solves faster.
2A. So when you do R' D' R D, add 1 to the count. When you do D' R' D R, subtract 1 from the count. The count can be negative and negative multiples of 6 are also valid "zero states" for the cube.
2B. This same logic applies to R U R' U' and U R U' R' if you are doing the corner cycling with the 4 corners in the D layer instead of U. This is how Cride likes to do it and how the Wiki shows (since he wrote it!). :)
3. You may come to a multiple of 6 or zero and have FRD correct, but twisted, and one of the 4 U layer corners also correct but twisted. A beginner would do AUF to bring the twisted corner to FRU and then do a corner twisting alg until it was correct. Instead, do that same AUF, but then rotate the cube such that FRU and FRD become FLU and FRU (a z' rotation I think). Then do the 2 corner fix up routine. Finally undo your AUF turn and the cube is solved.
4. As in 3 above you may find other combinations where two corners (not FRU and FRD) are correctly permuted (in the right place), but not correctly oriented (twisted). A setup move or two will allow you to bring them to FRU and FRD and then the cube can be solved with the corner fixup routine. Of course you need to reverse the setup move(s) at the end.

Points 3 and 4 above were a revelation to me. But I seem to be the slow cuber around here so maybe others (like Cride) saw this themselves and it's no big deal. I thought it was interesting enough to write about. I hope this made some sense.

Brian.
 
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