ZZ brag (unrelated tips appreciated!)

[al3x]

Hey! So I've been cubing with CFOP for the longest time. I'll provide a bit more background info to help pinpoint where it is that I need help.
So I learned to solve the cube with beginners keyhole method off YouTube, and as my interest in cubing grew, I learned full PLL and 2 look OLL. I never bothered to learn full oll (just 30 or so of the easier cases). After a lot of practice I began to realize that if I controlled the last layer edges for my last 1 or two C-E Pair(s), that I could skip the first look of OLL. So in a way, I used intuitive form of zbf2l (I was not aware this was a thing when i was learning how to do this). Once I learned that I could actually do the whole last layer in one step (ZBLL), I spent 8-9 months learning, and a year practicing (recog+exec) all of the ZBLL algs. So now, I have a decent last layer (.7-2.5 s) by using ZB. I've decided that I can further improve by learning ZZ, as I can use my inspection time a lot better.

I've got the basics of ZZ down, but here are my problems :
1. Using ZB (or my own form of it at least), on a good day I can average in the mid-high 6.xx, and on a bad day higher 7.xx to low 9.xx (depending how bad of a day I'm having). In learning ZZ, my times have gone up to 45 - 60s. Is this normal?
2. I cannot seem to plan the EOline in my inspection. In ZB, I could usually plan the cross+1 . Is this normal, and what can I do to improve planning EOLine
3. My EO+Line takes many more moves than the optimal ~7 moves required. How can I optimize move count?
4. Are there any general tips for EOLine and ZZ as a whole? Anything is appreciated, however I'm pretty solid with LL.

Thanks guys!

 

[TDM]

1. Using ZB (or my own form of it at least), on a good day I can average in the mid-high 6.xx, and on a bad day higher 7.xx to low 9.xx (depending how bad of a day I'm having). In learning ZZ, my times have gone up to 45 - 60s. Is this normal?

You can average sub-7 on a good day? Is that for the entire solve? But yes, when you first learn a method that's very different to what you've used before then your times will go up a lot. Keep practising and you'll get faster.

2. I cannot seem to plan the EOline in my inspection. In ZB, I could usually plan the cross+1 . Is this normal, and what can I do to improve planning EOLine

I can't either and I'm sub-20 when I use ZZ. A combination of a lot of solves and practising your EO (and eventually EOLine) without looking will help improve your ability to plan the EOLine. Take as much time as you need.

3. My EO+Line takes many more moves than the optimal ~7 moves required. How can I optimize move count?

What I've heard a lot is go to jarcs, generate a scramble (below the text box) and then find the EOLine tab at the bottom. Look at the optimal solutions given (click solve on the left of that bottom area) and try to learn tricks from the optimal EOLines. You're given multiple solutions, which is always helpful!

4. Are there any general tips for EOLine and ZZ as a whole? Anything is appreciated, however I'm pretty solid with LL.

I think I've covered all I know there, but I'd wait for other people's responses. There's a thread for ZZ/ZB users here if you have any other questions.

 

[al3x]

You can average sub-7 on a good day? Is that for the entire solve? But yes, when you first learn a method that's very different to what you've used before then your times will go up a lot. Keep practising and you'll get faster.

Yeah, I'm hit and miss to be honest. The fastest single I've gotten was 4.56 with a last layer skip. But in terms of ao5/ao12, I can get 6.6/7 s on good days, however some days when I'm completely out of it I'll get averages 9+, which is a terrible feeling.

More on the topic of ZZ, is it worth it to first just learn to plan EO (I find the line only ends up being 3-4 moves anyway)?

 

[TDM]

Yeah, I'm hit and miss to be honest. The fastest single I've gotten was 4.56 with a last layer skip. But in terms of ao5/ao12, I can get 6.6/7 s on good days, however some days when I'm completely out of it I'll get averages 9+, which is a terrible feeling.

More on the topic of ZZ, is it worth it to first just learn to plan EO (I find the line only ends up being 3-4 moves anyway)?

Wow, have you been to a competition yet? That's fast.

At first, yes, learn to plan EO. Learning to plan the line afterwards will take more time. For now, when practising (not timing), take as much time as you need and plan EO. Try to be efficient; it'll make it easier if you have less moves to do. You should get more efficient as you practise more anyway. I wouldn't start planning the entire EOLine until you can plan EO in at least 10 seconds, preferably less (I don't know much about being good at EOLine, so you really should ask someone else for this: 10 seconds might be too slow still). Planning the entire EOLine without much experience can be a challenge, and if you ever feel it's too hard go back to improving just EO.
Once you can plan EO in inspection, you can actually look for the line edges when you're doing EO, so that will help your times too.

 

[al3x]

One competition back in 2010, however I got a DNF and really bad times (25-30s), so I decided perhaps I should keep it as a hobby instead of a serious activity. I don't really wish to compete, but my goal right now is sub 6 average and to get a sub 4 single haha. And alright. In terms of EO, is it best to learn any algs? What i've been doing is with 2 edges, I'll just turn F/B and replace the corrected piece with incorrect ones and then fix it. And with 4+ incorrect edges, I'll just put all four one F/B and just do a quater turn, and solve the remaining 2 as normal. Is this correct , or am I doing something wrong? Thanks

 

[kcl]

What are your PB's..?

 

[al3x]

Should I just put my bests in my signature? I see a lot of people doing that. But anyway,
2x2 (Dayan) 1/3/5/12 - 0.56 (Lucky) / 1.28 / 1.50 / 2.34
3x3 (Aolong) 1/3/5/12/100 - 4.56 (Lucky) / 5.96 / 6.47 / 7.12 / 8.10
4x4 (AoSu) 1/3/5/12 - 23.43 / 26.76 / 28.22 / 30.43
3x3 BLD 1/3/5 - 24.22 (Lucky) / 28.22 / 31.43
Not as good as I would like, but I've improved a lot in the last 4 years (since when I signed up here)

 

[TDM]

One competition back in 2010, however I got a DNF and really bad times (25-30s), so I decided perhaps I should keep it as a hobby instead of a serious activity. I don't really wish to compete, but my goal right now is sub 6 average and to get a sub 4 single haha. And alright. In terms of EO, is it best to learn any algs? What i've been doing is with 2 edges, I'll just turn F/B and replace the corrected piece with incorrect ones and then fix it. And with 4+ incorrect edges, I'll just put all four one F/B and just do a quater turn, and solve the remaining 2 as normal. Is this correct , or am I doing something wrong? Thanks

Oh cool, what's your WCA profile?
Also, if you have any videos of you solving, that'd be helpful to give you help on how to improve. What you're doing with EO sounds right btw.

 

[MM99]

Dude all of these times are world class and you don't wanna go to competition???

 

[thatboyahcubah]

Unrelated to ZZ, but I feel it's worth congratulating you on the amazing accomplishment of memorizing all 500-something ZBLLs. That's a feat only a few humans have ever done.
Also, your times are ridiculously good. You should seriously consider going to competition because you would destroy any national tournament and (possibly) win worlds with times like those. Seriously, think about it. I'd love to see someone other than Feliks win worlds lol

 

[Petro Leum]

guess youre the living proof that learning full ZBLL is worth it.

Bro, if youre not going to comps, youre wasting alot of potential.

so, to your zz questions: yes, it is absolutely normal that you need alot, and i mean ALOT longer to solve when trying to learn EOLine. Eo at the beginning of a solve is a very difficult concept to grasp, but just like you got your cross to be more efficient and faster over time, you will get more efficient Eolines in a better time. Blockbuilding for proper ZZ is also rather hard to learn when you switch from CFOP/ZB, so you kinda have to force yourself to think outside the box, which, at the very beginning, also lets your times skyrocket. For EOLine, do it like this:

1. only find all unoriented edges in inspection. then solve EO and line.
2. plan EO in inspection (practise by doing EO blind) solve EO and line.
3. plan EO and find and track the Line Edges while solving. In this step, you will notice all the tricks and stuff to make your EOline more move efficient.
4. plan EOLine, be able to do it all blind.

Also, if youre only getting started, i would propose you learn more than just one orientation; it really helps and switching at a later date is really difficult.

few questions to you:
how long, from when you started cubing, did you need to get where you are now?
do you solve colorneutral?
tell us more about your experience memorizing almost ~500 algorithms for the last layer
what country are you from?


EDIT: i just read your thing about EO. if you have 6 unoriented edges, you can either orient 4 on F/B and the do the remaining 2, OR, you can orient 3 on F/B, move the newly created unoriented edge with the remaining 3 on F/B and orient them. (hope you understood) This is more optimal for some cases.

 

[al3x]

Thanks for all the compliments guys! Maybe I should consider going to worlds.
anyway, TDM, my profile id is 2010ARNO01. I have a 37 on there so don't laugh haha . I don't really have any videos of myself cubing as I never really thought of doing that. Maybe I should!
In terms of ZBLL (being worth it and what not), I never really straight up decided to learn ZBLL. However, I already had my own method of ZBF2L, and I knew full PLL, so I started with COLL and next thing I knew, I was halfway done the speedcubing wiki Alg set. But once you've practiced them for over a year, they come just as easily (and as fast to execute) as full PLL was. Thanks for the compliments though! I just never really considered that I had accomplished much.

guess youre the living proof that learning full ZBLL is worth it.

Haha yeah. I was never really that active on the forums (I mainly used the wiki), and I figured that ZBLL was commonly used.

Bro, if youre not going to comps, youre wasting alot of potential.

Yes and no, because I'm only cubing for my own entertainment.. However I guess if what you guys are saying is true (my times are competetive), then maybe it's worth a shot!

so, to your zz questions: yes, it is absolutely normal that you need alot, and i mean ALOT longer to solve when trying to learn EOLine. Eo at the beginning of a solve is a very difficult concept to grasp, but just like you got your cross to be more efficient and faster over time, you will get more efficient Eolines in a better time. Blockbuilding for proper ZZ is also rather hard to learn when you switch from CFOP/ZB, so you kinda have to force yourself to think outside the box, which, at the very beginning, also lets your times skyrocket. For EOLine, do it like this:

1. only find all unoriented edges in inspection. then solve EO and line.
2. plan EO in inspection (practise by doing EO blind) solve EO and line.
3. plan EO and find and track the Line Edges while solving. In this step, you will notice all the tricks and stuff to make your EOline more move efficient.
4. plan EOLine, be able to do it all blind.

This makes a lot of sense! However in regards to what you said about blockbuilding, am I being inefficient if I am solving the two blocks just like cfop's f2l?

how long, from when you started cubing, did you need to get where you are now?

about 4 years! It's been a long road haha

do you solve colorneutral?

Sort of. I usually get high 6 to low 7 averages with white and yellow, mid 7s with blue and green, higher 7s with red and orange.
So usually I will go for white or yellow unless I see at minimum a cross+2 elsewhere. I can 95% of the time get cross+1 with inspection on white and yellow.

tell us more about your experience memorizing almost ~500 algorithms for the last layer

haha. It was a long journey. Basically, I'm in school for Engineering Science, so whenever I'm not in class or studying, I'm cubing! I'd spend about a month, learning a case or two per day, on each of the ZBLL subsets (for sune, pi, etc). I have a decent memory, and I had lots of time to practice. Once I finally got to the end, my times were terrible. I was solving ~9seconds with full CFOP, and my times shot up to the high 30s by the end of 8 months. I was close to giving up, however when reading week came, I began practicing like crazy (mostly because I didn't have much else to do xD). After that week alone, my times had dropped to 17s (I thought that was pretty awesome. Recog of last layer alone took a lot of time, and my ll was ~8 seconds, 5 for recog, 3 for execution (average)). I've been cubing daily for about a year since learning all of the algorithms, and often times I will have certain weeks where I will get 4+ hours of dedicated cubing a day. It's down to the same speed as I was with OLL or pll, except i only have to preform one ! I definitely have room to improve, however I see a lot more potential in ZZ as it uses inspection time much more effectively.

what country are you from?

Canada!

EDIT: i just read your thing about EO. if you have 6 unoriented edges, you can either orient 4 on F/B and the do the remaining 2, OR, you can orient 3 on F/B, move the newly created unoriented edge with the remaining 3 on F/B and orient them. (hope you understood) This is more optimal for some cases.

I just tried this. It's awesome! Thank you!

 

[Robert-Y]

Can you please film a quick average of 5 please? Regardless of how fast it is, I think it's just kinda cool to watch someone use ZB in all of their solves (well unless you're really slow )

 

[Divineskulls]

Can you please film a quick average of 5 please? Regardless of how fast it is, I think it's just kinda cool to watch someone use ZB in all of their solves (well unless you're really slow )

This.

I'm very skeptical. Please prove me wrong.

 

[scottishcuber]

This.

I'm very skeptical. Please prove me wrong.

I share that skepticism. I would like a video as well.

 

[al3x]

Haha is ZB really that unheard of? Tomorrow I'll swing by staples and pick up a cheap webcam and post it here (due to popular demand haha). Currently don't have a webcam because I live 4 hours away from home (where I have one) .

 

[Robert-Y]

Thanks!

Also do you have any of your own algorithms for ZBLL? Have you stored them somewhere? I'm particularly interested in any ZBLL-U or ZBLL-H cases. I already have my own algs but I would like to know some better algorithms for certain cases.

 

[thatboyahcubah]

Haha is ZB really that unheard of? Tomorrow I'll swing by staples and pick up a cheap webcam and post it here (due to popular demand haha). Currently don't have a webcam because I live 4 hours away from home (where I have one) .

Yes, memorizing ~500 algorithms is kind of unheard of, especially with a person who's only been to one comp

 

[Petro Leum]

This makes a lot of sense! However in regards to what you said about blockbuilding, am I being inefficient if I am solving the two blocks just like cfop's f2l?

For most of the solves, yes. since you are restricted to LUR(D) solving, many of the standard insert cases in CFOP can be alot longer.

you can save many many moves by building blocks intuitively, that is, building pairs with the cross piece + edge and joinig it with the slot edge, or by working with 1x1x3s. it is extremely difficult to learn proper blockbuilding when switching from cfop though, after over a year of solving with zz i still sometimes catch myself prioritizing a standard cfop pair over a less move intensive block.

I can 95% of the time get cross+1 with inspection on white and yellow.

I see a lot more potential in ZZ as it uses inspection time much more effectively.

Hmm... Well, i can plan EOLine and track the cross edges while solving all the time, and im really terrible at planning ahead in inspection (Takes me around 2 minutes to onelook a 2x2 solve)

And after having done around 50-100 EOLine blind solves, so, not very much practice, i figure its possible to plan waaaay further in zz. possibly predict where the LD/RD Edges will end up, choosing wether to start on left or right block and maybe even into the blockbuilding itself. If that is the case, i would agree that ZZ uses inspection time more effectively.

 

[al3x]

To Robert Y, no problem! If i am as fast as you guys think, I understand the skepticism. Which cases in particular? I found a bunch with a sim that I created in second year computer sci and a bunch from different places online.
To thatboy, it's not as hard as you'd think! Once you get the hang of learning and reviewing algs, it gets easy! However I can see how one competition looks odd. That was 4 years ago though maybe I should go to another one soon!
And Petroleum, do you think I should learn any algs ? or is it just pure intuition (for weird block cases I mean)