Stefan
Legend
Exactly.
[WCA Regulations 2014] Logos and Stickers
- Thread starter Kit Clement
- Start date
Exactly.
tx789
Veteran
It either keep all or ban all. Or just have logo's that are part of the sticker. Having logos on some puzzles and not other May confuse people. Also as said before cube indenfication is made hard without logo's. Also I put the piece with a logo on a 2x2 in the fixed position on the wit two and Dayan. Because if you have a corner twist in a solve and it during making a face and the fixed corner is twisted at the end. And you don't know what one it is. But logo's that are a transparent overlay should be the other logo considered to be banned. Because when they start to wear out.
cubeninjaIV
Regular
I don't understand where you thought I said logos should be banned because of inspection or whatever you think I'm saying.
DrKorbin
Veteran
Ok, here is the perfect plan (for 4x4):
1) During inspection "memorize" wings like in bld, counting number of cycles, thus counting if there is parity or not.
2) Solve two opposite centers, one of them must have a logo. Count the number of slices you did. Thus you know if there is parity after two centers.
3) Put your solved centers on right and left sides. Note where is your logo. Solve other centers using <Rw, U, 3Lw>. Try to count Rw moves.
4) Oh man, you didn't count Rw moves! Worry not! You just need to see where is your logo now. You still know whether you have parity!
5) Do something like (r U2)*5 if you have parity.
6) Solve wings.
7) Solve 3x3. No OLL parity - ba-dum-tss!
Vote for ban all who uses logo on 4x4.
1) During inspection "memorize" wings like in bld, counting number of cycles, thus counting if there is parity or not.
2) Solve two opposite centers, one of them must have a logo. Count the number of slices you did. Thus you know if there is parity after two centers.
3) Put your solved centers on right and left sides. Note where is your logo. Solve other centers using <Rw, U, 3Lw>. Try to count Rw moves.
4) Oh man, you didn't count Rw moves! Worry not! You just need to see where is your logo now. You still know whether you have parity!
5) Do something like (r U2)*5 if you have parity.
6) Solve wings.
7) Solve 3x3. No OLL parity - ba-dum-tss!
Vote for ban all who uses logo on 4x4.
elrog
Veteran
Personally, I dislike having logos on my cubes because I like my cubes to look uniform on every side (besides the color). Also, If I attended competitions, I would recognize my cubes by the cube color and my color scheme. So none of this really affects me personally.
Nowhere have I seen it mentioned what parts of a cube the stickers can be on, just what cubes they can be on. Putting a logo on the edge of a 4x4 could obviously be used to an advantage. I think logos should be restricted to pieces that either don't move or are indistinguishable due to many pieces being the same and can move into each others cycles, regardless of puzzle. This would mean you could have stickers on center pieces of cubes and the very tips of pyramixes. I'm aware that you could use a logo on the tip of a pyraminx to tell what side everything should be, but you can do this by looking at a single tip piece anyway and it wouldn't make any difference for fast pyraminx solvers who are not going to forget their orientation mid-solve.
I also think that the limit of how many logos you can have should only apply to pieces that can actually move such as centers on the 4x4 (to prevent parity prevention). This limit should be no more than one distinguishable logo (in other words, you could have clear logos all over the cube to make everything feel the same). I don't think you could use a single logo to prevent parity. So, you could have a logo on every center piece of a 3x3.
For BLD, I think all of the same rules should apply and one more should be added. This added rule should be that you can only have a logo on a center piece in BLD if every center piece has one so that they are indistinguishable by feel.
I would say that logos should not be permitted at all except for the fact that they can be used to identify your cube. Because of that fact, I've come up with this which I think is fair.
As for DrKorbins method of detecting parity, I'll have you know that the WR for 3x3 in BLD took 15 seconds of inspection. This is a 4x4 were talking about here. I don't think they would make it in the 15 second inspection limit. Keep in mind that other people are going to be planning out their first two centers while your using your time to track edge cycles. Also, you'd just slow yourself down if you end up not having parity.
Nowhere have I seen it mentioned what parts of a cube the stickers can be on, just what cubes they can be on. Putting a logo on the edge of a 4x4 could obviously be used to an advantage. I think logos should be restricted to pieces that either don't move or are indistinguishable due to many pieces being the same and can move into each others cycles, regardless of puzzle. This would mean you could have stickers on center pieces of cubes and the very tips of pyramixes. I'm aware that you could use a logo on the tip of a pyraminx to tell what side everything should be, but you can do this by looking at a single tip piece anyway and it wouldn't make any difference for fast pyraminx solvers who are not going to forget their orientation mid-solve.
I also think that the limit of how many logos you can have should only apply to pieces that can actually move such as centers on the 4x4 (to prevent parity prevention). This limit should be no more than one distinguishable logo (in other words, you could have clear logos all over the cube to make everything feel the same). I don't think you could use a single logo to prevent parity. So, you could have a logo on every center piece of a 3x3.
For BLD, I think all of the same rules should apply and one more should be added. This added rule should be that you can only have a logo on a center piece in BLD if every center piece has one so that they are indistinguishable by feel.
I would say that logos should not be permitted at all except for the fact that they can be used to identify your cube. Because of that fact, I've come up with this which I think is fair.
As for DrKorbins method of detecting parity, I'll have you know that the WR for 3x3 in BLD took 15 seconds of inspection. This is a 4x4 were talking about here. I don't think they would make it in the 15 second inspection limit. Keep in mind that other people are going to be planning out their first two centers while your using your time to track edge cycles. Also, you'd just slow yourself down if you end up not having parity.
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KongShou
Veteran
Is logos considered as part of the original Rubik's brand?
Cos I seem to remember that on the regulations it says that the cubes we use should serve the functions of the original puzzle.
Cos I seem to remember that on the regulations it says that the cubes we use should serve the functions of the original puzzle.
DrKorbin
Veteran
Aron Puddy-Mathew already did it. The reason you can do it is you don't need to memorize pieces, just count the number of cycles.
elrog
Veteran
The original 6x6 and 7x7 were not Rubiks, so that won't solve anything. Also, basing this on that is just plain dumb in my opinion.
That's a good point, but you still are going to be behind on inspecting your centers and you will slow yourself down if you don't end up having parity anyway. Also, its not like you don't have to do a parity alg because you still do. You just get to do a shorter parity alg because you have not already solved the cube like a 3x3.
That's a good point, but you still are going to be behind on inspecting your centers and you will slow yourself down if you don't end up having parity anyway. Also, its not like you don't have to do a parity alg because you still do. You just get to do a shorter parity alg because you have not already solved the cube like a 3x3.
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uberCuber
Legend
Uh, his memo took about 8 seconds, not 15.
Yes, but you aren't looking at all of the pieces on the 4x4. You are only looking at the edges, which is barely more pieces than the total number of pieces on a 3x3. And as DrKorbin pointed out, you aren't actually memorizing them, just quickly tracing through them all to see if there is an even or odd number of swaps.
Joël
Veteran
Allright, this seems to make a lot more sense. I am glad that this is not about something you can see imediately at inspection, which is what I first thought. So to take advantage of this you'll have to know whether you have parity in the first place, and track the cycles like in BLD. To be honest, if someone can actually do this in inspection, and then use the logo to his advantage to get a WR, I think he/she kind of deserves it, therefore I wouldn't have a problem with the logo still being allowed.
Nevertheless, I can also see now why the WCA would say this is a good argument to ban logo's on 4x4's.
And since they are already about to ban logo's on 2x2, I'd say it's maybe better to ban logo's alltogether, just to make the rules more clear.
Btw, if I mod my 4x4, will I be allowed to mod 1 center piece a little more than the other center pieces?
uberCuber
Legend
I don't know about you, but I think there is a pretty significant difference between doing a standard parity alg when you get to the LL, and doing the few extra moves during centers it takes to fix parity if you know about it in advance.
DrKorbin
Veteran
Another "cheat" with logos on 5x5x5 (in the center):
Suppose I solve 5x5 using freeslice. I solved all centers and start freeslice between white and yellow sides (the logo is on the white side). I note how the logo is rotated. Now I solved 8 edges and need to restore centers (using Uw and Dw). Unfortunately, I can determine the slice needed very slowly. But I just need to look at the rotation of the logo again - and I know how many Uw I need to do to restore centers. Well, I still need to determine Dw slice, but the logo speeds me up.
Of course, this is won't speed up quick people, and this argument is kinda "+2 penalty for misalignment can speed WF solvers who don't do the last move".
Suppose I solve 5x5 using freeslice. I solved all centers and start freeslice between white and yellow sides (the logo is on the white side). I note how the logo is rotated. Now I solved 8 edges and need to restore centers (using Uw and Dw). Unfortunately, I can determine the slice needed very slowly. But I just need to look at the rotation of the logo again - and I know how many Uw I need to do to restore centers. Well, I still need to determine Dw slice, but the logo speeds me up.
Of course, this is won't speed up quick people, and this argument is kinda "+2 penalty for misalignment can speed WF solvers who don't do the last move".
TMOY
Veteran
I mean the supercube center (+ corner) parity. Some people seemed to think that the logo could make you able to check that parity, which is definitely wrong.
Yes, and you can achieve the exact same result by getting the L/R centers Uw away from solved instead of fully solving them. The position of the bars on R tells you how many Rw quarter-turns (mod 4) you have done, correcting them after the third center only takes 1 or 2 moves (adjusting R if needed, then Uw), and controlling parity that way is perfectly legal.
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BaMiao
Regular
So now I'm basically convinced that we should ban all logos, but then that seems a little extreme.
Any logo, unless made from the same exact material as all other stickers (and replaces the sticker rather than laying on top of it) can be used in BLD to distinguish centers- this includes common factory-issue logos like dayan, fangshi, etc. I don't think it is a good idea have separate regulations for BLD and sighted events.
DrKorbin has presented a viable method of using the logo on 4x4 to gain an advantage. It isn't a huge advantage, but that isn't important.
Logos on 2x2 uniquely identify the piece they are on. This is an advantage.
If we're fully set on getting rid of advantages due to logos, we should just get rid of logos altogether. Is that an extreme that the WCA is willing to push us to?
Any logo, unless made from the same exact material as all other stickers (and replaces the sticker rather than laying on top of it) can be used in BLD to distinguish centers- this includes common factory-issue logos like dayan, fangshi, etc. I don't think it is a good idea have separate regulations for BLD and sighted events.
DrKorbin has presented a viable method of using the logo on 4x4 to gain an advantage. It isn't a huge advantage, but that isn't important.
Logos on 2x2 uniquely identify the piece they are on. This is an advantage.
If we're fully set on getting rid of advantages due to logos, we should just get rid of logos altogether. Is that an extreme that the WCA is willing to push us to?
KongShou
Veteran
I think we need to define "cheating".
Cos half brights also speed me up, and is of significant help to me, much more helpful than a logo. Yet it is not defined as cheating.
Cos half brights also speed me up, and is of significant help to me, much more helpful than a logo. Yet it is not defined as cheating.
Divineskulls
Veteran
A lot of tiles have embossed/debossed logos. In fact, out of the 12 faces of tiles I once bought for my mega, ~5(I know it was >= 1/3) centers had debossed logos on them.
For QJ and Mefferts minxes, iirc, this is also the case; the centers often have embossed logos on one or more sides.
1) No, I actually thought this has been a rule, and I recall having someone at a comp use a different 2x2 because it had a logo on it. I think.
2) I think people are delving too far into this question. Is it possible to deduce whether parity has changed during a solve from a logo? Yes, I think that's been proven here. Is it important enough? No, of course not. Even if someone where to utilize a logo to figure out if they had parity or not, I don't see how this could benefit a solver. Even top notch solvers, in my opinion, would lose more time than gained if they were to attempt to do this in an official solve.
3) I agree with Kit, it would cause too much unnecessary confusion. One broad ruling is enough.
4) A logo is a logo, I don't see any point of banning custom logos and not brand logos, besides maybe people being too lazy to resticker/peel the brand logos off.
5) I have seen many people with logos that identify their cubes. It's not really important if I personally do, but I know a lot of people do.
DrKorbin
Veteran
I should mention that that way of utilizing a logo doesn't use it much. A logo just helps a bit, you don't need to count your moves during one of steps of the solving, but still need to do it during other steps. If there is no logo, you still can use this trick of avoiding long OLL parity alg. Well, maybe there is a way to use a logo that doesn't work without it, I don't know.
ScottTheCuber
Regular
For pyraminx what if my logo is on the Top Twisty Piece?
DrKorbin
Veteran
If you logo is on red-yellow-blue tip then you can quickly determine where will be green face (opposite to the tip with logo).
