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[WCA Regulations 2014] Logos and Stickers

Kit Clement

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EDIT by Lucas: Note that the strict changes in the first post were part of a discussion that led to only some of them taking effect. Please check the actual changes before you continue the discussion.


I think that among the current regulation changes that are being proposed, the logo regulations are the ones that will affect just about every cuber. For that reason, I wanted to make the (English-speaking) community aware of the proposed changes in order to consider whether we should make these changes. Logo changes are necessary, as the current regulations are incredibly lacking. Here's the GitHub to the proposed changes:

https://github.com/cubing/wca-documents/compare/logos

Here's a breakdown of the changes:

1) Logos are still allowed on the following puzzles: 3x3x3/5x5x5/7x7x7, Skewb, Megaminx, Square-1
2) Logos are not allowed on the following puzzles: 2x2x2/4x4x4/6x6x6, Pyraminx
3) Logos can not be any arbitrary logo, and are allowed up to the discretion of the delegate.
4) Puzzles can not be engraved/embossed.
5) Logos cannot be overlay stickers.

Reasonings:

- A logo on a 2x2x2 makes one of the corners easily identifiable in addition to the colors on that piece.
- A logo on a 4x4x4/6x6x6 could be theoretically be used to count the number of turns made on that face in order to count parity.
- Logos could be used to encode information (algs, color schemes, memo-related info for BLD, etc.) in an attempt to cheat.
- Engravings/Overlay stickers can be used to identify a side by feel. Not as important in speed solving, but more important for BLD.

So this leaves us with some obvious questions. If you are concerned with these changes, I would like you to answer the following questions:

1) Should we keep logos on the 2x2 or not?
2) Is the theoretical possibility of counting parity important enough to not allow logos for 4x4x4 and 6x6x6?
3) Should we consider having different logo regulations for BLD and speedsolving?
4) What kinds of logos should we allow? Should they need to be a brand logo, or can we allow custom logos? Is "delegate discretion" enough to manage custom logos?
5) Are logos important to you for the purpose of identifying your own cubes at a competition? If so, do you feel this hurts your ability to keep track of puzzles?

Thanks for your time, everyone. To start discussion, here are my own responses:

1) No, I believe that having a logo on a corner piece makes this type of piece too identifiable from other similar pieces.
2) No, I think that this is pretty silly, myself. No such way of counting parity is commonly known, and even so, it would be incredibly difficult to implement in such a way that it would improve times. I realize regulations should be proactive and not reactive to potential incidents, but I cannot see this becoming an incident.
3) I disagree with this. Regulations on logos should be consistent across all events to avoid unnecessary confusion.
4) Delegate discretion on logos should be sufficient to prevent cheating logos. Custom logos are okay by me.
5) My color scheme identifies puzzles for me, so N/A.
 
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D

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If logos are NOT allowed on the 2x2, then a Fangshi 2x2 would be illegal, since the logo is PAINTED ON the tile. This would have to be reviewed by the delegate or the board

Source: Chris Olson.

I personally don't see a change in recognition on a 4x4*


*Any MOYU/YJ cube will be competition illegal (2x2 + 4x4, and some 3x3) Reason being that the logos have feeling.

Pyraminx doesn't change anything.

1) It depends. If a 2x2 with a painted tile logo is your main, then it should remain that way. Don't make it illegal because of the way the cube was made.
2) No.
3. For BLD yes. Any MOYU/YJ cube has a logo with feeling on it, where you can tell the center or so. speedsolving should have an OK to this.
4) Custom logos should be allowed. But there are cheating logos (Yj/MOYU) or any logo that you can "feel"
 

SirWaffle

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1) I don't think logos on 2x2 should be allowed. It is pretty clear that this could be used.
2) I think the advantage that it would give would be rather impossible to use in a speed solve making it a pointless to not allow logos on 4x4 and 6x6.
3) I think that there shouldn't be any changes to logos in blind solving. it would be a too complicated to keep track of.
4) I think custom logos are just fine. I can't see any way this would help someone unless you did something like put an alg on it or something but that just seems plain silly.
 

TheZenith27

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1) A logo on a corner does not provide an advantage. It takes more time to think about what piece it is than it does to just look at the back of the cube. Even if it does give an advantage, everyone has the same advantage.
2) That's incredibly ridiculous. I laughed.
3) BLD regulations shouldn't be different from the speed ones.
4) Give the discretion to the delegate. If a logo has an algorithm printed on it, that obviously shouldn't be allowed, but if it just has a harmless design on it, even if it contains text, it should be allowed.
5) Yes. I identify my cubes first by cube color, then by my logo.
 

Jaysammey777

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1) no because it is fairly easy to recognize
2) no, because one side won't determine parity(I believe) and you can't have multiple logos, so it would seem irrelevant.
3) no, logos for bld is up to the cyber (if it makes a difference for them) but I don't see how it could be beneficial.
4) not entirely sure on what "arbitrary" and "overlay" stickers/logos or why they are being taken out
5) N/A
 

Tim Major

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Pyraminx doesn't change anything.

A logo on an edge piece could be advantageous for a solver that doesn't plan much in inspection, as it allows one to see which edge piece it is from one sticker. Not very helpful but an advantage nonetheless.

1) It depends. If a 2x2 with a painted tile logo is your main, then it should remain that way. Don't make it illegal because of the way the cube was made.

Do you realise how stupid that sounds? By that logic, all pillowed cubes and transparenrlt cubes would be competition legal.


I agree with no logos for 2x2s, as it actually gives a noticeable advantage to solvers who don't one-look.

I think there should be no engraved logos or logos that you can feel. I think logos on all cubes must be on centre pieces. The 4x4/6x6 parity count is ridiculous.

Basically I think no changes to current regulations except for 2x2.
 

alexjd99

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1) I think keeping logos on 2x2 is fine. It's somewhat unnecessary having everyone take the logos off, and I think that if there have been more than a few cases where people have been cheating, I think that rules should be enforced.
2)I have no idea about parity with BLD because I don't do BLD.
3) I think that any logo is acceptable as long as it doesn't reveal any information about scrambles, algs, etc.
4) Custom logos are fine. See above. Delegates desecration is fine.
5)Logos are very important. It helps me identify my cubes, and it also customizes my cubes, which I like a lot.

So there's my two cents.
 

SirWaffle

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1) A logo on a corner does not provide an advantage. It takes more time to think about what piece it is than it does to just look at the back of the cube. Even if it does give an advantage, everyone has the same advantage.
.

Actually it wouldn't take that long to think about what piece the logo was on because with blind solvers you can show them a piece an they can automatically know what letter corresponds with. Knowing what piece a logo is on would be very simple and probably faster then moving the cube to see.
 

Lucas Garron

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Argh, the forum lost my original reply. In short, I agree with Kit.

1) No, 2x2x2 is the most conspicuous example where you can use a logo to your advantage.
2) I think allowing on 4x4x4's and 6x6x6's is the most practical, even though adding a logo to any sticker allows you to distinguish the state in *some* ways.
3) Any significantly distinguishable markings should *not* be allowed for BLD. I'd prefer to keep puzzle requirements consistent across events, but perhaps this is desideratum is worth breaking.
4) No one has time to maintain a list of what's allowed, so we'll have to rely on Delegate discretion. Fortunately, I expect most competitors will show up with something standard.
5) I definitely like having "Lucas's Cube" stickers on my 3x3x3's to tell them apart at competitions. Since logos are the most visible distinction on legal speedcubes, I think we will need to continue relying on them for this purpose. It would be great if there were another way (e.g. a marking that is easy to see with a little non-destructive effort, but doesn't help during speedcubing, or a way to distinguish the shape/feel of the cube without changing its legality)...
 

TheZenith27

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Actually it wouldn't take that long to think about what piece the logo was on because with blind solvers you can show them a piece an they can automatically know what letter corresponds with. Knowing what piece a logo is on would be very simple and probably faster then moving the cube to see.
2x2 cases are recognized using only individual stickers anyway. It wouldn't matter if you know what piece it is.
 

legoanimate98

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These will be annoying for some people, but they are for the most part necessary. kind of like how +2s are annoying and necessary. I never have logos anyway, I can tell wich cubes are mine based on stickers, chips, and the feel of the cube.
 

KiwiCuber

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1) No, the first thing i do when i get a new 2x2 is pull any logo on there off anyway. It can be used to advantage so shouldnt be allowed
2) This is over thinking at its finest, logos on centres should still be fine, anyone counting the turns is not going to be that fast
3) Logos that are not printed on the sticker should be banned for BLD it can give you a distinct advantage (specifically if you lose your orientation you could regain it by feeling for the logo)
4) Any logo should be fine (except obviously algs etc.)
5) personally i dont use any logos on any puzzle and never intend to but i can see how it might be helpful at a large competition to identify puzzles more easily. I can identify my puzzles by look and fell pretty easily but some people do require the logos.
 

Jaysammey777

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Engravings/Overlay stickers can be used to identify a side by feel. Not as important in speed solving, but more important for BLD.

Orientation of a cube can be easily recognizable by the tensions of 2 side (both being tight but one not as much as the other). Does this mean that we should have a rule that all tensions be the same, and how would one be able to decide what is reasonable and what is not?

And if this doesn't matter, than overlay stickers don't matter either.
 

KiwiCuber

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Orientation of a cube can be easily recognizable by the tensions of 2 side (both being tight but one not as much as the other). Does this mean that we should have a rule that all tensions be the same, and how would one be able to decide what is reasonable and what is not?

And if this doesn't matter, than overlay stickers don't matter either.

But if you are checking tensions a judge will most likely notice compared to a logo which you can do very discreetly
 

qqwref

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I'm generally OK with these changes, but I have a question about this:

- A logo on a 4x4x4/6x6x6 could be theoretically be used to count the number of turns made on that face in order to count parity.

How is this a possibility? Even on a supercube, you can solve the centers of a 4x4x4 and still encounter OLL and PLL parity. So I can't see how center labeling could provide a solver any help there.
 

Kit Clement

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Orientation of a cube can be easily recognizable by the tensions of 2 side (both being tight but one not as much as the other). Does this mean that we should have a rule that all tensions be the same, and how would one be able to decide what is reasonable and what is not?

And if this doesn't matter, than overlay stickers don't matter either.

It's not that it doesn't matter, it's that there is no reasonable way to control for this. There is an incredibly easy way to control this for engravings and overlay stickers, identify them and don't allow them. Just because we can't limit a problem in a certain way doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to limit this problem in other ways.

How is this a possibility? Even on a supercube, you can solve the centers of a 4x4x4 and still encounter OLL and PLL parity. So I can't see how center labeling could provide a solver any help there.

Ask Lucas, he's the one who originally brought the issue up. I'm not cube-theory-savvy enough to answer that myself.
 
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tx789

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Logos that are printed are fine. But logos like Dayan has. Are the other sort of logo worth banning. But what about square The Calvin's puzzle has 2 logos and it doesn't give an advantage so that could be an exception.
 

Renslay

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2) Logos are not allowed on the following puzzles: 2x2x2/4x4x4/6x6x6, Pyraminx

Whai, what?!

- A logo on a 4x4x4/6x6x6 could be theoretically be used to count the number of turns made on that face in order to count parity.
- Logos could be used to encode information (algs, color schemes, memo-related info for BLD, etc.) in an attempt to cheat.

I want a proof.

1) Should we keep logos on the 2x2 or not?
2) Is the theoretical possibility of counting parity important enough to not allow logos for 4x4x4 and 6x6x6?
3) Should we consider having different logo regulations for BLD and speedsolving?
4) What kinds of logos should we allow? Should they need to be a brand logo, or can we allow custom logos? Is "delegate discretion" enough to manage custom logos?
5) Are logos important to you for the purpose of identifying your own cubes at a competition? If so, do you feel this hurts your ability to keep track of puzzles?

1) Not sure.
2) No, logos are more important to identify my own puzzles. See 5)
3) Agree with OP.
4) CUSTOM. See 5).
5) Hell yes! It happened to me many times that the judge did not bring my own cube, but a different one. And I have to yell WHO THE HECK HAS MY CUBE?! And I don't know how to get back my own cube without a clearly custom made logo!

EDIT: And If we forbid logos, we also has to forbid slightly damaged stickers to.
 
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