[WCA Regulations 2014] Logos and Stickers

[cubeninjaIV]

Why don't you people just read what I wrote ?

The parity counting problem doesn't exist. Period.

Wrong. Parity can be solved using any combination of an ODD number of slice turns. you can therefore, turn a slice and continue to fix the centers with an even number of slice turns, then do the same for the edges.
someone more advanced in the subject would be able to use commutators or something to fix the centers and edges, but if they are familiar enough to use commutators they probably know a parity alg.

it is also theoretically possible to trace this from the start of the solve to avoid parity altogether, provided that you know if the scramble had an odd or even number of slice moves but there is no way of knowing that without breaking some other rule, so I don't think that this should be used as a reason to eliminate logos.

In short, no, the problem does not exist. but that doesn't mean its impossible.
That being said, if someone uses this technique it will give them an advantage relative to themselves, but puts them at a disadvantage to others who use fast, optimal algs so i see no reason to ban logos on 4x4 and 6x6.

Also, for people who still remember internal misalignment on VCUBES and some 4x4's from around 2010, you will recall that if you put a piece between the two "fixed" internal pieces that this piece would become a fixed point on the cube relative to the core. I took advantage of this by placing a red, logoless piece in that spot. The result was that after solving my first two centers there would be a zero possibility of an internal lockup until I reached parity, which i would then perform with orange or red facing front to as to avoid internal lockups.

By making this piece identifiable it would be possible to also avoid lockups during the first two centers, but I tried it and found it more trouble than its worth and on top of that, the mechanisms of newer cubes completely eliminate this problem and anyone using a cube to which this trick applies is putting themselves at a disadvantage by using outdated, inferior hardware.

 

[XTowncuber]

Just because nobody has been known to actively do it doesn't mean that we shouldn't develop and better our regulations to prevent it from being a possibility.

True, but I just can't see anyone trying to cheat using this in the future. These proposals create a lot of hassle just to solve an extremely theoretical problem.

Again, I do think that removing logos from BLD is a good idea.

 

[BillyRain]

True, but I just can't see anyone trying to cheat using this in the future. These proposals create a lot of hassle just to solve an extremely theoretical problem.

Again, I do think that removing logos from BLD is a good idea.

The same could have been said about stickerless cubes. Who was really going to make use of the split colors to improve their results...? Yet the change was still made to cover potential loopholes in order to make a more solid regulatory system.

 

[Kit Clement]

True, but I just can't see anyone trying to cheat using this in the future. These proposals create a lot of hassle just to solve an extremely theoretical problem.

But that's why we want to have discussions like this, to see if we believe it could be used to an advantage, and more importantly if that advantage can feasibly make a competitor faster. Also, we have to weigh this against not allowing competitors to have logos on their even-layered puzzles. Without proposing such an idea to the community, we wouldn't know if such a problem could arise in the future.

 

[XTowncuber]

But that's why we want to have discussions like this, to see if we believe it could be used to an advantage, and more importantly if that advantage can feasibly make a competitor faster. Also, we have to weigh this against not allowing competitors to have logos on their even-layered puzzles. Without proposing such an idea to the community, we wouldn't know if such a problem could arise in the future.

Right, I'm not saying you shouldn't have proposed them, just that I think they should not be made official. It's a discussion worth having, but in the end the advantages are negligible.

 

[sabakku]

1) Honestly I do not see any advantage for solvers that One Look having a logo, the question here is, what should a person that has a Shishuang for instance do? Since it's engraved on the tile, does it give an advantage? Yes, is it really differential to the point where it should be banned? No. If a solver relies on a sticker to be faster, then clearly him or her is not threatening any other solver on the competition.
2) No, parity counting is something that even if created in a reasonable way, would take long enough to calculate and then execute, so I'd say it is pretty silly.
3) On BLD, My opinion is, no logos, I think BLD solvers who take it seriously will agree that, a cube without any logos feels better for the simple fact of no distraction when memorizing. But I do not see any real discrepancy a logo could cause, even if it was a way to mark a piece, there would be still other orientation issues needed to be concerned so a logo would only help you by a fraction. To avoid problems, no logos.
4) I think a delegate knows good enough to be able to tell what logos are "good" or "bad" it should be at it's discretion to judge.
5) I do not feel hurt, I do use custom logos on some of my puzzles, but I honestly don't care for the use of it at all, actually some of my main cubes don't even have any logo at all, I can keep track of it, for a collective purpose I like it, but as far as competing goes, no difference.

 

[Sajwo]

I think that factory's logos should be allowed on 2x2 and 4x4. It would be very annoing to resticker Moyu 4x4 or putting stickers on every side of fangshi 2x2. I have no opinion when it comes to pyra and 6x6, but logo on pyraminx can probably give a slightly advantage for some people

 

[Michael Womack]

I think that factory's logos should be allowed on 2x2 and 4x4. It would be very annoing to resticker Moyu 4x4 or putting stickers on every side of fangshi 2x2. I have no opinion when it comes to pyra and 6x6, but logo on pyraminx can probably give a slightly advantage for some people

Now actually thinking about it I that if some one has transparent logo sticker on there Pyraminx then they would know for sure of what color is opposed face would be from what tip that has the logo. For example my Meffert's Pyraminx has the logo on the blue/yellow/orange tip and it's pealing slightly and I can feel it and if I memorize the Color scheme then everytime I feel the logo I would know that green is not on that tip.

 

[Deleted member 19792]

Now actually thinking about it I that if some one has transparent logo sticker on there Pyraminx then they would know for sure of what color is opposed face would be from what tip that has the logo. For example my Meffert's Pyraminx has the logo on the blue/yellow/orange tip and it's pealing slightly and I can feel it and if I memorize the Color scheme then everytime I feel the logo I would know that green is not on that tip.

That means you have an advantage. I don't see the point of logos on a pyraminx.

 

[Kirjava]

First I had a sticker going on top of the sticker.

Since I was told this wasn't allowed, I added a layer of tape over both 'unembossing' it and was told that this was fine.

Am I to believe that this would be disallowed now?

wtf guys I just wanna put a cute little heart on my 3x3x3 centre what do I have to do to comply with this :c

 

[Kit Clement]

Right, I'm not saying you shouldn't have proposed them, just that I think they should not be made official. It's a discussion worth having, but in the end the advantages are negligible.

Glad you agree about having the discussion too, that's the point I was making. I agree with you on 4x4/6x6 as well.

For those who disagree with removing 2x2 logos: I haven't seen really any convincing reasons other than "I don't think it helps." The fact of the matter is that it can aid you in identifying a certain piece quicker, which is not desirable and can be used to achieve faster recognition, even if only subliminally. The only real argument I can see against it so far is that it would make certain models of 2x2 (ShiShuang?) unusable in competition.

 

[Paradox Cubing]

I dont think we should ban logos on these cubes, it would take too much time to think of the other colours by looking at the logo rather than just looking at the cube.

 

[TMOY]

Wrong. Parity can be solved using any combination of an ODD number of slice turns. you can therefore, turn a slice and continue to fix the centers with an even number of slice turns, then do the same for the edges.
someone more advanced in the subject would be able to use commutators or something to fix the centers and edges, but if they are familiar enough to use commutators they probably know a parity alg.

Not saying that this is false, but what's the connection with what I said ? We're talking about being able to determine the parity state using the position of the logo, which is actualy not possible. Granted, during the solve you will be able to figure out whether you've changed the parity or not, but if you don't know the initial parity state, it doesn't help.

 

[cubeninjaIV]

Not saying that this is false, but what's the connection with what I said ? We're talking about being able to determine the parity state using the position of the logo, which is actualy not possible. Granted, during the solve you will be able to figure out whether you've changed the parity or not, but if you don't know the initial parity state, it doesn't help.

I said that in my post, I even Bolded it to make it obvious, what I am saying is that it is possible but not without breaking some other existing regulation

you can use the logo to determine if the parity state has changed. which near the end of reduction is possible to determine. however it is also possible to do this without the logo.

Edit: I didnt see your original post, only the one regarding to counting parity not being possible, so i was explaining how it is possible, but very impractical

 

[Michael Womack]

Now that where Talking about Logos and since skewb is an official event what part of the skewb should have the logo if any the corner or center?

 

[DrKorbin]

Now that where Talking about Logos and since skewb is an official event what part of the skewb should have the logo if any the corner or center?

Not hard to figure it out yourself. If you put a logo on skewb's corner, you will be able to distinguish it from other corners, same as 2x2x2.

 

[cubizh]

1) Should we keep logos on the 2x2 or not?
2) Is the theoretical possibility of counting parity important enough to not allow logos for 4x4x4 and 6x6x6?
3) Should we consider having different logo regulations for BLD and speedsolving?
4) What kinds of logos should we allow? Should they need to be a brand logo, or can we allow custom logos? Is "delegate discretion" enough to manage custom logos?
5) Are logos important to you for the purpose of identifying your own cubes at a competition? If so, do you feel this hurts your ability to keep track of puzzles?

1) 3l) should be fixed to not allow ANY stickers on corner pieces for obvious reasons. I don't know why this hasn't been addressed before actually...
2) On center pieces (like 4x4 or 6x6) I don't see much of a problem really.
3) No. Logos should be flat, that's it.
4) Customs logos should be allowed so people can identify their own cubes. Delegate discretion is enough to manage logos with severe profanity or other sensitive material.
5) Absolutely? Doesn't even have to be at a competition, even with friends that have the same brand cube.

 

[Michael Womack]

3) No. Logos should be flat, that's it.

Do you mean something like the Cubesmith/V-cube/Rubik's/Maru logos where there printed onto the sticker instead of a Transparent layer like what the Dayan cubes have?

 

[rj]

1. Yes.
2. No. Reasonable wear can have a greater help.
3. Yes.
4. All.
5. No.

 

[Goosly]

1) Should we keep logos on the 2x2 or not?
2) Is the theoretical possibility of counting parity important enough to not allow logos for 4x4x4 and 6x6x6?
3) Should we consider having different logo regulations for BLD and speedsolving?
4) What kinds of logos should we allow? Should they need to be a brand logo, or can we allow custom logos? Is "delegate discretion" enough to manage custom logos?
5) Are logos important to you for the purpose of identifying your own cubes at a competition? If so, do you feel this hurts your ability to keep track of puzzles?

1) Yes
2) No
3) No. If one needs to check which of his centers is the one with the logo during BLD, he's doing a lot wrong and he won't get a decent result anyway. If someone really wants to do that, I'm fine with that.
4) Allow custom logo's
5) Yes. Yes. I want to know which cubes are mine without spending 10 minutes testing every cube on the table to check if it "feels the same" as the cube that I lost. Custom logo's