[WCA Regulations 2014] Logos and Stickers

[LarsN]

About custom logos: You might want to consider what the purpose of removing custom logos is and how much you want to go into that problem. If you want to keep people from hiding information in the logo, then you will have to ban people with tattoos on their arms or people with painted nails.

I think we should keep custom logos. They serve a very important purpose of identifying cubes. Losing cubes seems a bigger problem then maybe having an algorithm on a cube.

The only problem I see with logos is that they sometimes feel different from the other stickers.

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

I think that the chance of losing even cubes with no logos is a very high possibility, especially with a lot of people using the same brands of puzzles. Also I believe that the chances of using logos to give you much more information is impractical.
For the 2x2, most solvers who are capable of getting good times will be able to tell you where their logo is at all times due to the fact that tracing all pieces is not very challenging compared to some other puzzles.
As for 4/6, The difficulty of using centres to detect parity very high, and people losing puzzles at a competition seems much more likely. And so.

1) Yes
2) No
3) No
4) Any
5) Yes

 

[Mollerz]

1) No
2) No
3) No
4) Delegate discretion. For example I have a modded mf8 V1 Megaminx, it has mf8 tiles on it as a result. These ALWAYS come with an engraved logo on one side, mine happens to be purple. There is no way I am EVER going to get an advantage with this, so the delegate can say, yes it is allowed.
5) Yes

 

[TMOY]

1) Should we keep logos on the 2x2 or not?
2) Is the theoretical possibility of counting parity important enough to not allow logos for 4x4x4 and 6x6x6?
3) Should we consider having different logo regulations for BLD and speedsolving?
4) What kinds of logos should we allow? Should they need to be a brand logo, or can we allow custom logos? Is "delegate discretion" enough to manage custom logos?
5) Are logos important to you for the purpose of identifying your own cubes at a competition? If so, do you feel this hurts your ability to keep track of puzzles?

1) I have no firm opinion on this. I have no idea of how to efficiently use that logo to get an unfair advantage, but it doesn't seem imposible to me either.
2) Waaaaaaaaaaaatdafuq ? This is totally ridiculous, there is absolutely no way to deduce parity from the position of the logo, not even theoretically. Just apply 3-cycles on centres of the same color and yuo will be able to put the logo on any one of the four possible places without changing the apparent state of the cube. You would need to put logos on every center but at most one of a given orbit to be able to coun parity with them, and even that would be very impractical.
3) I don't see any good reason for that.
4) I don't see any problem with custom logos.
5) Not really, but it may help sometimes.

Edit: minor correction to 2). Since the condition for being able to tell parity from the position of centers is to not have any two undistinguishable centers, you need 18 logos for that (3 on each side), not 23. But that doesn't change my point.

 

[Tim Major]

I just thought up something else I didn't say before.

The top 2, 4, 6, Pyra, Mega etc solvers have absolutely no advantage from logos. Mid range MAY for some puzzles (though the 4x4/6x6 reasoning is bat**** insane)

Mid range 2x2 solvers MAY have a TINY advantage. In the end this suggested regulation does nothing except annoy.

 

[Dene]

4) I don't see any problem with custom logos.

The problem is the theoretical situation where someone puts, say, an algorithm on their cube as a logo...

 

[Lucas Garron]

4) Delegate discretion. For example I have a modded mf8 V1 Megaminx, it has mf8 tiles on it as a result. These ALWAYS come with an engraved logo on one side, mine happens to be purple. There is no way I am EVER going to get an advantage with this, so the delegate can say, yes it is allowed.

So, tiled Megamixes used to be the norm, and tiled 4x4x4's were popular for a while. However, I'm seeing them much less frequently. Arguably, tiles of any significant thickness should be forbidden, since they let you recognize pieces from additional angles.

I see a few possible solutions to your new Megaminx issue:

1) Allow it, either in general or at the Delegate's discretion.
2) Find a way to get rid of it. Perhaps buy spare tiles if you can.
3) Buy a new puzzle.

As much as it is unfortunate to cause certain puzzles to become invalid, the story with tiles and engravings has been embarrassingly inconsistent. The engravings Regulations is one of quite a few that only exist because of what puzzles used to be available years ago.

If competitors cannot adapt their puzzles (2), there are now also many stickered/thin-tiled options available (3).
If you think it should be allowed (1), could you detail under exactly what circumstances? (If the concern is mainly Megaminx, it might be valid to add an exception for it.)

 

[~Adam~]

1. No, get rid of 2x2 logos
2. Yes, IF it's possible they should be removed.
Also if a 4x4 or 6x6 is released which has a fixed centre wouldn't you be able to avoid parity if you knew which centre it was?
Better to nip it in the bid now than have to adjust the rules later IMO.
3. Yes, even some factory logos can be felt so should be banned
4. Delegate discretion seems fine to me.
5. Personally I have a possibly unique colour scheme so it doesn't effect me but I know that WeiLongs in particular go missing at most competitions because the colours are so good that most people keep the stickers as they are.
If people can't easily make their cube distinguishable this issue will become even worse.

I would like to bring up the point that many people still use tiled MF8 megaminxs so maybe add a clause that if an identical logo is engraved on every centre cap of a puzzle then it is still competition legal.
Once again it doesn't effect me, I'm just thinking about the greater good, "the greater good", stop that!

 

[Coolster01]

3) Should we consider having different logo regulations for BLD and speedsolving?

YES! Anybody could just feel the D center and if there is a logo then no parity and vice versa.

 

[BrainOfSweden]

1) I think they should be allowed since I don't believe they would provide enough of an advantage to actually make your solve faster, unless you're really slow.
2) I don't really know, maybe this should be given some research?
3) Yes, probably. In regular speedsolving, overlay or engraved logos would do absolutely nothing to help you, since you can see the opposite side and therefore know the color of the logo without touching it. Of coure, for even number cubes, this is not always true, but I don't believe the advantage of trying to feel a center instead of actually looking for it is big enough. However, in BLD, anything that differentiates a piece tactilely can be an advantage. For this reason, I also want stickerless cubes in BLD again
4) For the reasons in the question below, I would like custom stickers to be allowed. Of course not if they could be considered as offensive, but that's were the delegate discretion should kick in.
5) Not to me personally, but I believe it is to many others.

 

[FatBoyXPC]

1) A logo on a corner does not provide an advantage. It takes more time to think about what piece it is than it does to just look at the back of the cube.

This is so not true. I had a logo on the white/green/orange corner, and the logo was on the white face. I didn't even have to think about that. To be fair, I don't recall purposely using it to my advantage, but who is to say I hadn't subconsciously?

 

[Stefan]

2) Waaaaaaaaaaaatdafuq ? This is totally ridiculous, there is absolutely no way to deduce parity from the position of the logo, not even theoretically. Just apply 3-cycles on centres of the same color and yuo will be able to put the logo on any one of the four possible places without changing the apparent state of the cube.

If I let's say put the logo on Ufr and then do U turns, I can tell how many U turns I did modulo 4, just by looking at where the logo is.

 

[XTowncuber]

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

 

[DrKorbin]

If I let's say put the logo on Ufr and then do U turns, I can tell how many U turns I did modulo 4, just by looking at where the logo is.

Saem thing with logos on 3x3.

 

[TMOY]

If I let's say put the logo on Ufr and then do U turns, I can tell how many U turns I did modulo 4, just by looking at where the logo is.

Because you know which kind of scramble you just applied. If I apply a random number of U turns and then a center correction alg (say E' L E M E' L' E M' for example) another random number of times, you will be unable to tell how many U-turns (even mod 2) I did by only looking at the centers.

 

[scottishcuber]

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

That's an ethos I strongly disagree with. What we have here is a system that is constantly trying to get better and better, these improvements are produced by change. The effects of these changes may be negligible, but if it makes logical sense then I would want it implemented.

 

[Michael Womack]

Some of us like to have logos on our 2x2/4x4/6x6 but I don't the reason why competitors should compete in the event with no logo. And then as for logos that are over a stickers, about 90% of the puzzles nowadays have the Logo as a transparent Layer over a sticker.

 

[BillyRain]

I certainly agree that logos should at least be banned for all BLD events. They can give advantages (regaining cube orientation when lost, even on y/y' if you know your logo well enough!, if solving corners first on 4BLD you can tell where your center buffer is if you forget to count... etc)

But if you ban them for BLD events you may as well ban then across the board...?

 

[XTowncuber]

That's an ethos I strongly disagree with. What we have here is a system that is constantly trying to get better and better, these improvements are produced by change. The effects of these changes may be negligible, but if it makes logical sense then I would want it implemented.

How many people have you heard of that cheated by using logos?

To me it seems the only change here that would be worth the hassle is removing logos from BLD events.

 

[BillyRain]

How many people have you heard of that cheated by using logos?

To me it seems the only change here that would be worth the hassle is removing logos from BLD events.

Just because nobody has been known to actively do it doesn't mean that we shouldn't develop and better our regulations to prevent it from being a possibility.