Feasibility of Using ZZ as a Beginner's Method

[aceofspades98]

lets teach the hardest, most non intuitive, longest to inspect speed cube method to complete beginners

I will pay you one imaginary dollar to justify that statement.

 

[kcl]

Feasibility of NOT Using LBL/CFOP as a Beginner's Method

I will pay you one imaginary dollar to justify that statement.

I'll give it a shot.
1. EO detection is a pain. I average 13 with CFOP and after weeks of trying ZZ, it was still confusing as heck. As mentioned, people don't get how to flip them easily. If you tell someone to put in a last cross edge that is misoriented, they probably can't or will take a long time to do so.
2. EOLine is difficult. Again, when I was messing with ZZ I never really understood it well.
3. Blockbuilding, and even f2l are too complex for most people to understand. When I first picked up a cube, I didn't know HOW the beginner algs worked. Now if you try and add to that by saying you have to PAIR two pieces first, it just becomes way too confusing.

 

[TDM]

1. EO detection is a pain. I average 13 with CFOP and after weeks of trying ZZ, it was still confusing as heck.

Really? I was averaging 22-23 when I started, and it didn't take me that long. I still can't plan EO during inspection after a couple of months, but detecting the misoriented edges isn't that difficult.

Also, why does your list go 1, 2, 4?

 

[kcl]

Really? I was averaging 22-23 when I started, and it didn't take me that long. I still can't plan EO during inspection after a couple of months, but detecting the misoriented edges isn't that difficult.

Also, why does your list go 1, 2, 4?

Really the EO part is the main thing. It's just way to tricky for somebody with no prior experience to pick up.

And I have no clue about the list, my brain is tried haha XD. Fix'd.

 

[uberCuber]

It's plenty easy to teach a beginner how to determine if each edge is oriented correctly or not, making them understand what that means is a bit harder, actually teaching them how to solve EO can be difficult, and making them truly understand what it is they're doing and what each move is accomplishing could take quite a bit of time.

In terms of just teaching someone how to solve stuff, the blockbuilding F2L would probably be much more difficult than EO. EO is easy to solve, it's the understanding part that's difficult (which of course is the part that leads to being able to solve EO efficiently)

 

[mark49152]

A good beginner's method (for anything) should introduce the fewest possible, simplest possible, concepts and steps.

EO just isn't necessary for a beginner. What does it gain them? Avoiding cube rotations? What's easiest to understand for a beginner: rotating the cube, or EO?

 

[brian724080]

Really? I was averaging 22-23 when I started, and it didn't take me that long. I still can't plan EO during inspection after a couple of months, but detecting the misoriented edges isn't that difficult.

Same, ZZ has been super easy, but on the contrary, I can already plan my EOLine in 15 seconds of inspection (not optimized, obviously).

A good beginner's method (for anything) should introduce the fewest possible, simplest possible, concepts and steps.

EO just isn't necessary for a beginner. What does it gain them? Avoiding cube rotations? What's easiest to understand for a beginner: rotating the cube, or EO?

The sad thing is, neither...

 

[aceofspades98]

I'll give it a shot.
1. EO detection is a pain. I average 13 with CFOP and after weeks of trying ZZ, it was still confusing as heck. As mentioned, people don't get how to flip them easily. If you tell someone to put in a last cross edge that is misoriented, they probably can't or will take a long time to do so.
2. EOLine is difficult. Again, when I was messing with ZZ I never really understood it well.
3. Blockbuilding, and even f2l are too complex for most people to understand. When I first picked up a cube, I didn't know HOW the beginner algs worked. Now if you try and add to that by saying you have to PAIR two pieces first, it just becomes way too confusing.

You said it was the most non intuitive.

Have you never heard of CFOP or even a beginners method in general?

 

[kcl]

You said it was the most non intuitive.

Have you never heard of CFOP or even a beginners method in general?

I didn't say that. KongShou did. I said why I personally think it's not a good idea.

 

[TheNextFeliks]

Can we change the title to Feasibility of ZZ as a Beginners Method cause the current title is too broad.

 

[brian724080]

Can we change the title to Feasibility of ZZ as a Beginners Method cause the current title is too broad.

I'd do that but the Go Advanced button doesn't work when I edit my original post, I think I'm missing something.

 

[aceofspades98]

I didn't say that. KongShou did. I said why I personally think it's not a good idea.

Usernames are confusing.

 

[kcl]

Usernames are confusing.

Yes but there's only one of him here!

(Hi Kim!)

 

[elrog]

lets teach the hardest, most non intuitive, longest to inspect speed cube method to complete beginners

I guess its a good thing that ZZ is not the hardest or most non intuitive speed cube method.

I also don't see what is so hard about the EO-line. I picked up the idea very quickly and I like it a lot more than inspecting the cross.

 

[uberCuber]

I picked up the idea very quickly and I like it a lot more than inspecting the cross.

You like inspecting 12 pieces more than inspecting 4?

 

[TDM]

You like inspecting 12 pieces more than inspecting 4?

He said he liked it. He never said it was easier. I also like EOLines more than crosses even though mine take 4 seconds more.

 

[ravenguild08]

Meh, I think ZZ is bad for beginners. I've taught probably like 50 beginners how to solve the cube (and worked as a teacher for 3 years), and beginners in general really like seeing payoffs immediately when they invest any effort. The cross, the first layer, then then the middle slice all look concretely productive because stickers line up and it feels great.

ZZ is designed to rid of later cube rotations. Have you ever noticed that when beginners are looking around on the cube, they can't help but turn it around in their hands? It's hard enough for me to encourage them to keep the cross on the bottom! ZZ is also designed to take explicit advantage of competition 15-second inspection. I'm sure tracking EO for 12 edges is completely unfeasible for beginners and what will happen instead is that you'll teach them to find 2-4 bad edges at a time and correct them in small groups.

Hypothetical try: you might say something like "Don't turn the cube yet! Just look for edges that are oriented incorrectly. What does that mean? Well. ::long explanation here:: Yes, I know they look all wrong; none are really in the right place, but that doesn't matter, what matters is which way they're pointed! No, it doesn't matter that yellow is touching yellow. Yes, I can see that one matches 3 pieces that are touching it, it doesn't matter right now and it's okay if you move it. What do you mean you don't want to move it?! Just do it! You don't understand why there are two edges with green stickers where green pointed 'out' is right then another two where green pointed 'out' is wrong? But how come orange 'out' is always wrong? And you fix it by turning the green or blue faces once? What do you mean you don't know what green or blue faces mean!? Fine, you can keep that correct edge, just find the other three and I'll teach you this other method..."

 

[brian724080]

Meh, I think ZZ is bad for beginners. I've taught probably like 50 beginners how to solve the cube (and worked as a teacher for 3 years), and beginners in general really like seeing payoffs immediately when they invest any effort. The cross, the first layer, then then the middle slice all look concretely productive because stickers line up and it feels great.

ZZ is designed to rid of later cube rotations. Have you ever noticed that when beginners are looking around on the cube, they can't help but turn it around in their hands? It's hard enough for me to encourage them to keep the cross on the bottom! ZZ is also designed to take explicit advantage of competition 15-second inspection. I'm sure tracking EO for 12 edges is completely unfeasible for beginners and what will happen instead is that you'll teach them to find 2-4 bad edges at a time and correct them in small groups.

Hypothetical try: you might say something like "Don't turn the cube yet! Just look for edges that are oriented incorrectly. What does that mean? Well. ::long explanation here:: Yes, I know they look all wrong; none are really in the right place, but that doesn't matter, what matters is which way they're pointed! No, it doesn't matter that yellow is touching yellow. Yes, I can see that one matches 3 pieces that are touching it, it doesn't matter right now and it's okay if you move it. What do you mean you don't want to move it?! Just do it! You don't understand why there are two edges with green stickers where green pointed 'out' is right then another two where green pointed 'out' is wrong? But how come orange 'out' is always wrong? And you fix it by turning the green or blue faces once? What do you mean you don't know what green or blue faces mean!? Fine, you can keep that correct edge, just find the other three and I'll teach you this other method..."

You're right, ZZ is designed for speedsolving and use in competitions.

Sometimes it's just really frustrating to teach some people because they get the edges and corners mixed up, or are unable to spot a white cross edge right in front of them.

 

[Joël]

You're right, ZZ is designed for speedsolving and use in competitions.

Sometimes it's just really frustrating to teach some people because they get the edges and corners mixed up, or are unable to spot a white cross edge right in front of them.

Hi Brian,

I recognise the frustration. But then when I pick up a megaminx, and have to search for pieces (or try color neutral solving), I understand what it feels like to be a beginner again. So you need to have empathy and patience (yeah, it's hard for me too).

Beginners have to put a lot of effort into it, but the teacher often has to put in the same effort. I recently taught a collegue of mine, and felt like giving up sometimes. I had to show him a different way to insert an edge, because the more standard RU'R'U'F'UF was something he didn't get. When I showed him R'ER U2 R'E'R, he liked that a lot more. So for every step we had to find a way that he could understand/remember.

Be patient, and try to break down the algoritms into very small bits. In my experience, algorithms are more easily remembered when each move can be explained and understood.

 

[brian724080]

Be patient, and try to break down the algoritms into very small bits. In my experience, algorithms are more easily remembered when each move can be explained and understood.

Yes, that is very true, and I can fully comprehend what you mean by the megaminx, because I am horrible at it. I've tried the multiple aspects of algorithms, and most people will get it, what really is frustrating is when neither of the approaches work. Still, I've only started cubing less than a year ago, so the feeling of being a beginner is still somewhat fresh in my mind. This way, I can understand what beginners feel are so could communicate with them more efficiently.