Martín Telésforo "4.41 single" DNF - Perry Open, Mexico

[XTowncuber]

I read the spanish version of what he said and it isn't 100% clear so don't trust the translation to translate what he meant to say.

In spanish he said: "en mi resolución me equivoque a la hora de ejecutar y después decidí improvisar algunos giros, me percate que dos pares del f2l estaban resueltos"

Which seems to me that he means that when it was time to solve he decided to go with the white cross rather than his original plan because he saw 2 f2l's already solved.

The initial moves with the white cross were then not "pre-planned" (therefore "improvised"). By chance he saw that a third f2l was solved and the third was done with R U' R'.

So, if I understand you correctly, he decided to switch crosses just before he started the solve? That does make it ever so slightly more plausible. Still impossible, but less so.

 

[DaveyCow]

So I read most of this thread but it got too time-consuming so sorry if this has already been addressed but: Has anyone talked to the judge? Did he watch and witness an official solve? Did he know all the rules? It seems those would be the first questions to ask.

 

[Owen]

It's interesting actually, no one seems to know who the judge was, or even who was present at the time.

 

[moralsh]

So, if I understand you correctly, he decided to switch crosses just before he started the solve? That does make it ever so slightly more plausible. Still impossible, but less so.

No, he says in the first sentence that he was wrong while executing, not while inspecting, so IMHO the solve had already started. Then he says "después" which means "later" so it was after starting and messing up when he switched to improvisation mode and found the triple Xcross.

I agree with Michael45764 that it isn't written crystal clear, but it doesn't leave much room to a sensible explanation of the solve either.

 

[Faz]

Even if he started on white, the solutions found in this thread, ending in R U R' and J perm, cannot be executed in 4.41 seconds. If anyone can solve that scramble with that ending in 4.5 seconds or less, I'll buy them dinner at worlds

I'm not sure whether people truly appreciate how fast 4 seconds is. The difficulty gap between a 4 second solve and a 6 second solve is equal to the gap between a 6 and a 10, in my opinion.

 

[IamWEB]

Even if he started on white, the solutions found in this thread, ending in R U R' and J perm, cannot be executed in 4.41 seconds. If anyone can solve that scramble with that ending in 4.5 seconds or less, I'll buy them dinner at worlds

I'm not sure whether people truly appreciate how fast 4 seconds is. The difficulty gap between a 4 second solve and a 6 second solve is equal to the gap between a 6 and a 10, in my opinion.

4 is literally two-thirds of 6, and 6 is nearly two-thirds of 10, so you're actually right from a technical standpoint.
Can you execute one of those solution in under 4.5 seconds?

 

[AvGalen]

Thanks for cleaning up the thread and recapping.

It seems to be clear that the WCA is treating this like a police investigation "we cannot comment on an ongoing investigation" after they made the necessary "we are working hard on this" statement and that seems like a very wise way to approach this without any prejudice. They would have to determine IF this is valid and only if they can sufficiently prove that they would of course like to know how that time got into the results officially (how did he do it) and if he did that alone. So far this forum has been very helpful in helping determine if it could be valid, but not anything beyond that. I tried to steer the discussion in that direction yesterday, but so far there hasn't been much response to that:

3 video's:
1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=XvQKgd-8KRA
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=5XGfYydlovg
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=0UPDPZRZtYo

7 questions:
a) Can anyone explain why everyone was around him?
b) Can anyone explain why there were so many people videotaping him, but there is no material from the actual solve?
c) Can anyone identify the man in the orange shirt that seems to have the perfect angle for recording the actual solve?
d) Can anyone actually confirm that video 1 and 3 are shot during the competition and are recordings of the timeframe of the alleged 4.41 solve?
e) Who/where was the judge?
f) Who/where was the delegate?
g) Who/where was the organisor?

I hope that this is helpful to the WCA and that we will hear some official news.

On a lighter mood, I just saw a slogan somewhere that basically proves that this just can't be the record: "...live on cubecomps.com - where records see the light."
Also on a lighter mood: Good luck everyone next weekend. Just try to break this time (or the 5.55)

 

[Crowned xerxes]

Thanks for cleaning up the thread and recapping.

It seems to be clear that the WCA is treating this like a police investigation "we cannot comment on an ongoing investigation" after they made the necessary "we are working hard on this" statement and that seems like a very wise way to approach this without any prejudice. They would have to determine IF this is valid and only if they can sufficiently prove that they would of course like to know how that time got into the results officially (how did he do it) and if he did that alone. So far this forum has been very helpful in helping determine if it could be valid, but not anything beyond that. I tried to steer the discussion in that direction yesterday, but so far there hasn't been much response to that:

3 video's:
1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=XvQKgd-8KRA
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=5XGfYydlovg
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=0UPDPZRZtYo

7 questions:
a) Can anyone explain why everyone was around him?
b) Can anyone explain why there were so many people videotaping him, but there is no material from the actual solve?
c) Can anyone identify the man in the orange shirt that seems to have the perfect angle for recording the actual solve?
d) Can anyone actually confirm that video 1 and 3 are shot during the competition and are recordings of the timeframe of the alleged 4.41 solve?
e) Who/where was the judge?
f) Who/where was the delegate?
g) Who/where was the organisor?

I hope that this is helpful to the WCA and that we will hear some official news.

On a lighter mood, I just saw a slogan somewhere that basically proves that this just can't be the record: "...live on cubecomps.com - where records see the light."
Also on a lighter mood: Good luck everyone next weekend. Just try to break this time (or the 5.55)

Do you possibly know why a guy at 50 seconds sticks a unsolved cube into the camera view?

 

[Faz]

4 is literally two-thirds of 6, and 6 is nearly two-thirds of 10, so you're actually right from a technical standpoint.
Can you execute one of those solution in under 4.5 seconds?

I don't think anyone can, hence the challenge

 

[AvGalen]

Do you possibly know why a guy at 50 seconds sticks a unsolved cube into the camera view?

No, be I also don't speak any Spanish which doesn't help in this situation.
The cube thing has been discussed a bit in this thread though. It has been mentioned that there might have been as many as 3 cubes involved. A Guhong X for the solve, this white cube that was shown and apparently was picked out of a bag, and a Guhong Y for the next solve. I don't know if any of that is accurate but that is how it was described

 

[moralsh]

another question to add to AvGalen's list, Would anyone trust a WR video shared from a Youtube account with a name related to viral videos? ("Virales" is plural of viral in spanish), it just looks as a set up idea from the owner of that account.

 

[Ton]

Even if he started on white, the solutions found in this thread, ending in R U R' and J perm, cannot be executed in 4.41 seconds. If anyone can solve that scramble with that ending in 4.5 seconds or less, I'll buy them dinner at worlds

I'm not sure whether people truly appreciate how fast 4 seconds is. The difficulty gap between a 4 second solve and a 6 second solve is equal to the gap between a 6 and a 10, in my opinion.

-That's why I guess, if it was a true solve (so the timer did not stop early or had a malfunction), solve must have been less than 32 moves, we could estimate the number if we would know his current TPS.

-if it was true it is like the fastest FMC attempt ever, so a very lucky scramble for his method

So for me his TPS will count as evidence

 

[nickvu2]

I haven't read every post in this thread so maybe this was brought up before; if so apologies.

Just to fuel all the speculation, here's another angle by which this matter could be examined. The study of body language and micro expressions is a fascinating topic. Programs like this show experts analyzing footage of public figures and pointing out telltale signs of lying and truth telling. I have no doubt that a body language expert could look at the video of Telesforo and determine in a second whether the WR claim is legit.

In short, they would be asking themselves if Telesforo's posture, hand movements, facial expressions, words, tone, behavior, etc. are ALL consistent with someone who just broke the 3x3 WR. For example, in the Watergate trial, Nixon was speaking sternly and defensively (anger and frustration at the accusations, consistent with his claim of innocence) but wringing his hands behind his back (inconsistent, showing nervousness and doubt).

Now if any of you are actually proficient at this skill, I'd love to hear your opinion. If you're not an expert and this sounds interesting and you want to try analyzing the video yourself, some things to keep in mind: try not to go in having already formed a conclusion; please be honest about your noob status and realize you and I are making little more than guesses.

Whatever, it's a fun exercise =) Maybe something worth paying attention to in your everyday life. [That documentary linked to above is worth checking out!]

 

[applemobile]

Obviously I am no expert, but it's pretty apparent in the videos that he is uneasy and not exactly looking overjoyed. Doesn't take an expert to see that he is clearly battling with some inner guilt.

 

[Renslay]

7 questions:
a) Can anyone explain why everyone was around him?
b) Can anyone explain why there were so many people videotaping him, but there is no material from the actual solve?
c) Can anyone identify the man in the orange shirt that seems to have the perfect angle for recording the actual solve?
d) Can anyone actually confirm that video 1 and 3 are shot during the competition and are recordings of the timeframe of the alleged 4.41 solve?
e) Who/where was the judge?
f) Who/where was the delegate?
g) Who/where was the organisor?

I think this has the answers to f) and g):
http://worldcubeassociation.org/results/c.php?winners=Winners&competitionId=PerryOpen2013

As about a), it seems that they didn't follow the exact rules, according to wontolla's post.

 

[Genesis]

I haven't read every post in this thread so maybe this was brought up before; if so apologies.

Just to fuel all the speculation, here's another angle by which this matter could be examined. The study of body language and micro expressions is a fascinating topic. Programs like this show experts analyzing footage of public figures and pointing out telltale signs of lying and truth telling. I have no doubt that a body language expert could look at the video of Telesforo and determine in a second whether the WR claim is legit.

In short, they would be asking themselves if Telesforo's posture, hand movements, facial expressions, words, tone, behavior, etc. are ALL consistent with someone who just broke the 3x3 WR. For example, in the Watergate trial, Nixon was speaking sternly and defensively (anger and frustration at the accusations, consistent with his claim of innocence) but wringing his hands behind his back (inconsistent, showing nervousness and doubt).

Now if any of you are actually proficient at this skill, I'd love to hear your opinion. If you're not an expert and this sounds interesting and you want to try analyzing the video yourself, some things to keep in mind: try not to go in having already formed a conclusion; please be honest about your noob status and realize you and I are making little more than guesses.

Whatever, it's a fun exercise =) Maybe something worth paying attention to in your everyday life. [That documentary linked to above is worth checking out!]

I'm quite sure nobody had pointed it out yet, this may be a new approach considering that we do not have much progress as of now

 

[Dene]

Just to fuel all the speculation, here's another angle by which this matter could be examined. The study of body language and micro expressions is a fascinating topic. Programs like this show experts analyzing footage of public figures and pointing out telltale signs of lying and truth telling. I have no doubt that a body language expert could look at the video of Telesforo and determine in a second whether the WR claim is legit.

Having a degree in psychology, I have a lot of doubt about employing such a method. While there are generally ways to tell if someone is lying, a lot of views held are actually myths (such as people avoiding eye-contact being an indication of lying; this is not true). And if someone knows the facts about these things, it is very easy to manipulate one's body language to appear however one wants to portray it.

 

[Pedro]

Also, it is clear that many rules were not followed during this competition. I have lots of experience and know that sometimes it is just impossible to follow all the rules and you have to just do the best you can. But can anyone tell me if this is how other South-American tournaments were as well? I have been everywhere else in the world but not there, so I would honestly like to know

(Not to be picky, but Mexico is actually Central/North America).
Here in Brazil we're not in a state I would consider a role model for competitions, but we've improved greatly over the past few years. Except for a very small competition, we don't let people stand around tables (specially behind them) when people are solving. We usually have a stage of some nature, and only competitors and judges are allowed to go up there.

Of course this is not always possible to enforce, and has happened here also in the past. But this whole situation looks like more a joke/prank to me than real competition solving. Everybody is around him, cheering for a 18.xx solve as much (or even more) than they did for the WR(?).

 

[AvGalen]

I think this has the answers to f) and g):
http://worldcubeassociation.org/results/c.php?winners=Winners&competitionId=PerryOpen2013

As about a), it seems that they didn't follow the exact rules, according to wontolla's post.

Thanks for trying, but
a) I wanted to know WHY they were standing around him. Did they know something special was going to happen in advance?
e, f and g) I wanted to know if the judge/deletegate/organisor was somewhere in the videos

You watched too much Lie to me.

I am looking at Stefan's avatar and am trying to decide if he is serious

(Not to be picky, but Mexico is actually Central/North America).
Here in Brazil we're not in a state I would consider a role model for competitions, but we've improved greatly over the past few years. Except for a very small competition, we don't let people stand around tables (specially behind them) when people are solving. We usually have a stage of some nature, and only competitors and judges are allowed to go up there.

Of course this is not always possible to enforce, and has happened here also in the past. But this whole situation looks like more a joke/prank to me than real competition solving. Everybody is around him, cheering for a 18.xx solve as much (or even more) than they did for the WR(?).

Thanks for correcting me. As I said before, I don't know enough about that part of the world and need to learn more. I was brought up with the idea that "North = USA+Canada", aka cold and western. "South = warm, temperamentful, soccer".
Good to hear that comps are improving where you are. This comp seems like it should not even be allowed to be WCA. Something I wouldn't want to have to decide because I am sure the organisers+sponsors+competitors would all be very disappointed.

 

[Litz]

a) I wanted to know WHY they were standing around him. Did they know something special was going to happen in advance?

The video is from after the "solve".