Europe 2008

[Erik]

The presence of non-europeans within a European Championship is just not possible in my opinion.

Why? There were non-Americans at all of our US National Championships. Everyone got along, everything went fine, we were still able to crown a US Champion.

I can't believe it.... again you are comparing the US to Europe, I won't explain again why this comparision is a questionable one to make...

 

[Tyson]

But again, why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?

 

[Worms]

i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion.

I think that you must try to eliminate all the countrys and continentes of the world before..

 

[rxdeath]

The presence of non-europeans within a European Championship is just not possible in my opinion.

Why? There were non-Americans at all of our US National Championships. Everyone got along, everything went fine, we were still able to crown a US Champion.

I can't believe it.... again you are comparing the US to Europe, I won't explain again why this comparision is a questionable one to make...

nice way to dodge the point. its only as questionable as you make it, you're the one using imaginary lines to make your point. if you want to use such ideas...the us is about the same size, has the same ethnic diversity, and number of competitors, how is this comparison unfair? if you're only going to answer one question though, answer mine or tyson's its one in the same. how will forigners being there affect your ability to crown a EC?

i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion.

I think that you must try to eliminate all the countrys and continentes of the world before..

good idea, do you know where i can get some plutonium?

 

[Mike Hughey]

Tyson, I think it's pretty clear that Erik wasn't saying there couldn't be a European Champion. He was simply pointing out that he is concerned that rxdeath is next ready to campaign to eliminate European Champions.

i never said i would work to do that, although i think its unnecessary, having some silly title doesn't affect anyone or their ability to compete in a tournament. please don't put words in my mouth. also don't just make it out like i hate europeans, i love/hate everyone equally, i could care less where you're from, if i did want to elimiate those titles, i would work against the USA one, NAR, AU, and every other one equally.

I'm sorry if I improperly put words in your mouth, but you did say this:

i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion. just a world champion, but one step at a time .

I suppose you don't come out and say you're going to work to do it, but the implication is certainly there. The smiley really doesn't invalidate the implication. I can see how others would see this post on your part and figure that the removal of European Champions (and other regional/national champions) will be next.

 

[shelley]

i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion.

I think that you must try to eliminate all the countrys and continentes of the world before..

Don't be silly. There is no Australian Champion (in that there hasn't been an Australian Championship). Does that mean the country of Australia has been eliminated?

 

[shelley]

I can't believe it.... again you are comparing the US to Europe, I won't explain again why this comparision is a questionable one to make...

Perhaps you weren't paying attention.

The reason we keep comparing our nationals with your continental level competitions is that in terms of geographic and population size (and cuber population), the US is more comparable to Europe than to, say, Hungary. It's not because we think the US is more important than any single European country.

By the way, you still haven't answered the question. How does the presence of foreign cubers keep you from crowning a European Champion? Squawk! Polly want a cracker!

 

[rxdeath]

Tyson, I think it's pretty clear that Erik wasn't saying there couldn't be a European Champion. He was simply pointing out that he is concerned that rxdeath is next ready to campaign to eliminate European Champions.

i never said i would work to do that, although i think its unnecessary, having some silly title doesn't affect anyone or their ability to compete in a tournament. please don't put words in my mouth. also don't just make it out like i hate europeans, i love/hate everyone equally, i could care less where you're from, if i did want to elimiate those titles, i would work against the USA one, NAR, AU, and every other one equally.

I'm sorry if I improperly put words in your mouth, but you did say this:

i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion. just a world champion, but one step at a time .

I suppose you don't come out and say you're going to work to do it, but the implication is certainly there. The smiley really doesn't invalidate the implication. I can see how others would see this post on your part and figure that the removal of European Champions (and other regional/national champions) will be next.

the smile is because i can't imagine the kind of holy chaos that would erupt from people about this, if there is this reaction to just opposing closed touraments. i'm not a tyrant or an jerk, the title situation doesn't affect me, so i don't care.

 

[rubikaz]

But why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?

These two things are independents. I want an European Champion and I also want an closed European championship.

Anycase...

There are some events with limited participants and without qualification round. So foreigners can avoid some European participates in these events and maybe he is very good and he could win some of these events but he had not participated before. I think that it is a good answer to your question. On the other hand, in my opinion this question is not important.

 

[AvGalen]

Shelley:

The United States has local/state/regional/national level championships, both open and closed, for many sports and activities as well. It's not a foreign concept to us.

I know you do have all of those, but that list ends on the national level. For Europeans all those levels exist + the European level. I know for some sports the US has continental levels, but mostly the level goes from National straight to World. That is why the European level might be harder for you to understand. Europe is still trying to create an identity and in many aspects (political, monetary, economical) this has still gotten a long way to go, but when it comes to sport an overwhelming majority enjoys the idea of comparing "their" team to "other European countries" team. I personally think the idea of "our" team is silly, but whenever I hear of someone Dutch performing really well I can't help feeling a bit proud. To sum it up: It's hard to understand why a (closed) EC has such a high appeal, but the simple fact is that it does. (but please come to the EO)

rxdeath:

i merely showed how rules != fair by any means, and to say that rule is ridiculous and other competitions should be closed is different, i think is flawed.

I read this sentence at least ten times, but I don't understand what you mean

exclusion is exclusion and they should all be stopped

No they shouldn't. Or do you think women soccer should allow male players, stop having paralympics (or allow everyone to compete), etc. There are many reasons for exclusion and geography, selfishness and pride are just some of them.

Tyson 1:

YES! Lars V.? That completes my plan! I've only dreamed that the three of you would come.

Indeed Lars V. (aka jazzthief) We have discussed going to the US Open and the only thing we didn't like was how the planetickets were much more expensive compared to Chicago. But I don't think that will stop him or me, so I think your plan might work. But why the three of us? What about the other foreigners like Matt and Jessica Walter, Dave Campbell, Sven Gowal, Anders Larsson, Yiding Hao and Hugo Hinojos-Kabata? (I can't say I remember the last two)

Tyson 2: To protect minorities from unwanted changes a veto is a usefull tool. (It can also be a real pain in the "fleshy part of the human body that you sit on")

And please everyone, stop comparing US to Europe. US is a country, Europe is .... not.

Clancy has done what he thinks was necessary and got his wish. He can now go to the European Open. But he still hasn't said he will actually go and hasn't registered so far. Who is actually going to come?

The question "But again, why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?" is a good one and my answer is: "It doesn't".
But the point of having an EC is not to crown a European Champion. It is to have a EC. Crowning a European Champion is just a part of that. Getting a European feeling is another part that has been reduced in my opinion.
So one more time: Having a European Open is a good thing and I hope many non-Europeans will come. But having a closed EC is also a good thing and that is no longer there.

 

[Tyson]

But why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?

This two things are independents. I want an European Champion and I also want an closed European championship.

Anycase...

There are some events with limited participants and without qualification round. So foreigners can avoid some European participates in these events and maybe he is very good and he could win some of these events but he had not participated before. I think that it is a good answer to your question. On the other hand, in my opinion this question is not important.

The first two sentences you say are merely your desires and don't really reflect anything. Fortunately, I only want a sandwich, and I can have that rather easily.

Is it actually possible that enough foreigners sign up that the top Europeans can't participate? If this is your concern, then wouldn't the solution to be have different participation caps for foreigners and Europeans?

How is this question not important? Isn't it the crux of everything?

 

[Erik]

I can't believe it.... again you are comparing the US to Europe, I won't explain again why this comparision is a questionable one to make...

Perhaps you weren't paying attention.

The reason we keep comparing our nationals with your continental level competitions is that in terms of geographic and population size (and cuber population), the US is more comparable to Europe than to, say, Hungary. It's not because we think the US is more important than any single European country.

on terms of geographic and population.. etc etc... it's not those terms that define a continent, the USA and Russia should be a continent too then it's big, and it's got loads of people... so now I ask you: why isn't this the case?

 

[Mike Hughey]

I'm sorry if I improperly put words in your mouth, but you did say this:

i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion. just a world champion, but one step at a time .

I suppose you don't come out and say you're going to work to do it, but the implication is certainly there. The smiley really doesn't invalidate the implication. I can see how others would see this post on your part and figure that the removal of European Champions (and other regional/national champions) will be next.

the smile is because i can't imagine the kind of holy chaos that would erupt from people about this, if there is this reaction to just opposing closed touraments. i'm not a tyrant or an jerk, the title situation doesn't affect me, so i don't care.

I think it's good that we clarified that. Smilies can mean too many different things.

 

[Rama]

rxdeath: First of all, do you ever use capital letters?
Second of all, shouldn't you be also complaining about National/Continental Records on this thread, since you have the fullest attention here anyway.

Tyson: Maybe the fact that the foreigner could beat everyone and the European Champion is a bit less Champion.

Ego, selfish, what more fancy words do you have for us?

Shelley: Don't compare the United States competitions with European Competitions.
NO MA'AM.

 

[Tyson]

The question "But again, why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?" is a good one and my answer is: "It doesn't".
But the point of having an EC is not to crown a European Champion. It is to have a EC. Crowning a European Champion is just a part of that. Getting a European feeling is another part that has been reduced in my opinion.
So one more time: Having a European Open is a good thing and I hope many non-Europeans will come. But having a closed EC is also a good thing and that is no longer there.

How does having foreigners present at the European Championships take away from the European feeling? Do you feel less European if you're around non-Europeans?

The United States is also made up of states, all of which can be very different. I think this comparison between Country and Collection of Countries is again, mostly language.

 

[Tyson]

Tyson: Maybe the fact that the foreigner could beat everyone and the European Champion is a bit less Champion.

Why would you be less of a Champion? You would be the European Champion. Clearly, you wouldn't be the Champion of the World, but that's not what's being decided at the European Championships.

 

[shelley]

So the point of having an EC is to exclude foreigners. Glad we've cleared that up.

 

[Erik]

The United States is also made up of states, all of which can be very different. I think this comparison between Country and Collection of Countries is again, mostly language.

I think it's more cultural and political than it is a language matter personally... but we can make another discussion about that....

 

[rubikaz]

Is it actually possible that enough foreigners sign up that the top Europeans can't participate? If this is your concern, then wouldn't the solution to be have different participation caps for foreigners and Europeans?

Example, 4x4 blindfold, the maximum number or participants is 12. Each foreign that get a place for participate will quit an European from this list. And you don't know if someone, that have not tried to solved 4x4 blind in a competition before, can beat now the WR...

About the other question, maybe there is not enough time for it...

 

[rxdeath]

Shelley:

The United States has local/state/regional/national level championships, both open and closed, for many sports and activities as well. It's not a foreign concept to us.

I know you do have all of those, but that list ends on the national level. For Europeans all those levels exist + the European level. I know for some sports the US has continental levels, but mostly the level goes from National straight to World. That is why the European level might be harder for you to understand. Europe is still trying to create an identity and in many aspects (political, monetary, economical) this has still gotten a long way to go, but when it comes to sport an overwhelming majority enjoys the idea of comparing "their" team to "other European countries" team. I personally think the idea of "our" team is silly, but whenever I hear of someone Dutch performing really well I can't help feeling a bit proud. To sum it up: It's hard to understand why a (closed) EC has such a high appeal, but the simple fact is that it does. (but please come to the EO)

rxdeath:

i merely showed how rules != fair by any means, and to say that rule is ridiculous and other competitions should be closed is different, i think is flawed.

I read this sentence at least ten times, but I don't understand what you mean

exclusion is exclusion and they should all be stopped

No they shouldn't. Or do you think women soccer should allow male players, stop having paralympics (or allow everyone to compete), etc. There are many reasons for exclusion and geography, selfishness and pride are just some of them.

And please everyone, stop comparing US to Europe. US is a country, Europe is .... not.

Clancy has done what he thinks was necessary and got his wish. He can now go to the European Open. But he still hasn't said he will actually go and hasn't registered so far. Who is actually going to come?

The question "But again, why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?" is a good one and my answer is: "It doesn't".
But the point of having an EC is not to crown a European Champion. It is to have a EC. Crowning a European Champion is just a part of that. Getting a European feeling is another part that has been reduced in my opinion.
So one more time: Having a European Open is a good thing and I hope many non-Europeans will come. But having a closed EC is also a good thing and that is no longer there.

all the things you say are important are still there and will only be diminished if you allow it to be. to me you say 'if foreigners are present, it ruins our competition' this is a horrid thing to hear. what is the 'european feeling'? having no one else but europeans around makes this? its very elitist sounding and in a world organization i think its a sad joke.

the rule thing was if i set up rules to make it so only me/my friends can come and win, its just the same as if you guys have closed competitions. sadly i don't care about europe's political, economical, social processes for this debate. it has nothing to do with what is fair to the world community, and the comparison between the us and europe on a cuber level is very even in my opinion.

i meant all exclusion should be stopped in this cubing sport, i wasn't really taking a jab at the special olympics or anything like that, sorry if i wasn't clear.


erik: the governmental and political influences have little to do with this debate, you're argument is based off a bunch of imaginary lines. if you take away the ideas of countrys states etc (which is acceptable since we're a world community) we're almost exactly the same