Europe 2008

[Tyson]

@Clancy: if you want a change in the WCA way of doing things, this discussion would be on the WCA forum, but I didn't see any posts about that (when I looked yesterday) since 2007

you seem to want to dictate where i post. i will post wherever i please, and it will be where i think it will have the most effect. don't try and punk me out erik, i won't have it. this is a fair discussion and if you don't like the result, don't turn it into a witch hunt for me because i'm the one that inspired the change. if you think you have a good argument attack my ideas, not anything else about me.

The yahoo group has been around longer, and is arguably more convenient for someone who does most of their correspondence through gmail.

 

[Erik]

you seem to want to dictate where i post. i will post wherever i please, and it will be where i think it will have the most effect. don't try and punk me out erik, i won't have it. this is a fair discussion and if you don't like the result, don't turn it into a witch hunt for me because i'm the one that inspired the change. if you think you have a good argument attack my ideas, not anything else about me.

I'm not trying to 'punk you out' at all and I am holding a fair discussion, it's you who is trying to make me look like an infant little child. It's obvious imho that if you request the WCA to change something you ask it on the official place and not on a forum which most people don't check. I'm not directing you to it, nor do I give you a order to post it there. It's just the way it should be done. Or, at least (if it's so important to you that everbody knew about your opinion), I don't see why you didn't post it in as many forums as possible...

 

[rubikaz]

erik:
european votes don't count more than other cuber votes, this is a world wide organization as iv'e said 1000x. its not politics, a sport or anything its just people cubing. there is no europe in cubing. there is no usa. we are all just one big group. there are no 'outsiders'-- this is the elitist talk i hope to kill with my efforts. i didn't make the change i did as you said and requested it. since to those organizing the tournament it was the right idea, it was changed.

There is no Europe in cubing..., European championship, uhm... there is something that I don't understand :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:. If you are right, then we should change the name of this championship: Bilbao Open.

 

[Tyson]

you seem to want to dictate where i post. i will post wherever i please, and it will be where i think it will have the most effect. don't try and punk me out erik, i won't have it. this is a fair discussion and if you don't like the result, don't turn it into a witch hunt for me because i'm the one that inspired the change. if you think you have a good argument attack my ideas, not anything else about me.

I'm not trying to 'punk you out' at all and I am holding a fair discussion, it's you who is trying to make me look like an infant little child. It's obvious imho that if you request the WCA to change something you ask it on the official place and not on a forum which most people don't check. I'm not directing you to it, nor do I give you a order to post it there. It's just the way it should be done. Or, at least (if it's so important to you that everbody knew about your opinion), I don't see why you didn't post it in as many forums as possible...

Hey Erik,

With all due respect, and I know I'm not the best example of this right now, some of us have jobs which make it difficult for us to check every forum in the world. Me personally, I have easy access to e-mail so I check yahoo groups.

I do have a job, and I do need to work to pay my rent. But I don't know that that makes my opinion any less valuable. I guarantee you won't be able to put in the same type of time and dedication into cubing when you finally have to start paying your own bills.

 

[Tyson]

erik:
european votes don't count more than other cuber votes, this is a world wide organization as iv'e said 1000x. its not politics, a sport or anything its just people cubing. there is no europe in cubing. there is no usa. we are all just one big group. there are no 'outsiders'-- this is the elitist talk i hope to kill with my efforts. i didn't make the change i did as you said and requested it. since to those organizing the tournament it was the right idea, it was changed.

There is no Europe in cubing..., European championship, uhm... there is something that I don't understand :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:. If you are right, then we should change the name of this championship: Bilbao Open.

Why? The European winners at this competition will be crowned as European Champions.

 

[shelley]

I'm not trying to 'punk you out' at all and I am holding a fair discussion, it's you who is trying to make me look like an infant little child. It's obvious imho that if you request the WCA to change something you ask it on the official place and not on a forum which most people don't check. I'm not directing you to it, nor do I give you a order to post it there. It's just the way it should be done. Or, at least (if it's so important to you that everbody knew about your opinion), I don't see why you didn't post it in as many forums as possible...

WCA members do read the Yahoo forum. I know at least Ron does. It's not like getting them to read it twice will make it any more or less "official." This isn't what the argument is about.

 

[Erik]

You can't expect all cubers to check on the yahoo group all the time either right? (I personally don't have any reason to since I think most of what is posted there is not interesting to me) I don't have unlimited time either. I hope I'm mistaked I really do, but I somehow got the impression that you are kinda saying, I'm busy and I have a job and you don't. (just a question, I'm not saying you said it, it just looked like that to me)

@ Shelley, so ok.. we can contact and request changes in any way we like. Isn't the WCA still supposed to do what most cubers would like to do and at least do a thorrow investigation/poll/whatever?

 

[Tyson]

You can't expect all cubers to check on the yahoo group all the time either right? I don't have unlimited time either. I hope I'm mistaked I really do, but I somehow got the impression that you are kinda saying, I'm busy and I have a job and you don't. (just a question, I'm not saying you said it, it just looked like that to me)

That was in response to you saying that Clancy should have posted on every forum available. I could be wrong, but high school students generally don't have the same type of responsibility as someone living on their own. Generalization, of course and not applicable to everyone. Maybe you help pay your family's bills. I don't know.

But let me try and get an answer to a question. How will allowing foreigners into the European Championships inhibit the tournament's ability to crown the European Champion?

 

[rxdeath]

you seem to want to dictate where i post. i will post wherever i please, and it will be where i think it will have the most effect. don't try and punk me out erik, i won't have it. this is a fair discussion and if you don't like the result, don't turn it into a witch hunt for me because i'm the one that inspired the change. if you think you have a good argument attack my ideas, not anything else about me.

I'm not trying to 'punk you out' at all and I am holding a fair discussion, it's you who is trying to make me look like an infant little child. It's obvious imho that if you request the WCA to change something you ask it on the official place and not on a forum which most people don't check. I'm not directing you to it, nor do I give you a order to post it there. It's just the way it should be done. Or, at least (if it's so important to you that everbody knew about your opinion), I don't see why you didn't post it in as many forums as possible...

well i'm the one that runs my posts, i don't feel the need to post it all over the place, i choose the one spot i felt it would be effective, then when i saw where the biggest conversation was happening i went there. if you don't check that place i don't think that makes it less valid, or you can say most people don't go there, especially since its far more established than this forum. but this isn't the issue, the issue is why closed comps are unfair to the other cubers that are excluded, so where i post it has little to do with the topic.

to rubikaz- i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion. just a world champion, but one step at a time . what i said was a response it being recommended that only euro cubers should vote on this. we are all cubers together and everyone's opinion matters equally. honestly there is no vote necessary, the organizers that did it like this is better. the only vote left is the one in 5-6 month when i try and abolish these permanently.

 

[rubikaz]

erik:
european votes don't count more than other cuber votes, this is a world wide organization as iv'e said 1000x. its not politics, a sport or anything its just people cubing. there is no europe in cubing. there is no usa. we are all just one big group. there are no 'outsiders'-- this is the elitist talk i hope to kill with my efforts. i didn't make the change i did as you said and requested it. since to those organizing the tournament it was the right idea, it was changed.

There is no Europe in cubing..., European championship, uhm... there is something that I don't understand :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:. If you are right, then we should change the name of this championship: Bilbao Open.

Why? The European winners at this competition will be crowned as European Champions.

My answer was about rxdeath affirmation. He says that there is no Europe in cubing! So why we have to crown an European Champion? If there is no Europe in cubing, it don't make sense...

 

[Tyson]

I mean, if you don't want to recognize a European Champion, that's your prerogative. I think it would be cool to have a European Champion as it would be cool to have a World Champion or a United States Champion.

You don't have to recognize it if you don't want to. Much like how you don't have to accept that WCA exists either.

 

[Erik]

That was in response to you saying that Clancy should have posted on every forum available. I could be wrong, but high school students generally don't have the same type of responsibility as someone living on their own. Generalization, of course and not applicable to everyone. Maybe you help pay your family's bills. I don't know.

But let me try and get an answer to a question. How will allowing foreigners into the European Championships inhibit the tournament's ability to crown the European Champion?

First: the effort of going to 2 more websites and copy/paste your message that you really want to be heared is no where near the effort of checking all those messages from those forums everyday.

Second: the number of non-europeans doesn't matter at all! I've heared this question so many times, but it's totally irrelevant. It's the face that there CAN be loads of non-europeans.

Third: the fact you have more responsibility doesn't necessarily mean you (not you, but people in general) have less time for other things, nor does it mean that people with less responsibility have more time for other things...

 

[Tyson]

Okay, I plead no contest to your responses. But please respond to the last thing I wrote. How will having foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion. I think perhaps we were getting side tracked with an argument I did not mean to start. My apologies. But please answer my question.

I don't want, nor do I intend, for any of this to be a personal attack. I'll do my best to keep it this way. I'm sure you will as well.

 

[Mike Hughey]

Tyson, I think it's pretty clear that rubikaz wasn't saying there couldn't be a European Champion. He was simply pointing out that he is concerned that rxdeath is next ready to campaign to eliminate European Champions.

Edit: sorry - I got Erik and rubikaz mixed up.

 

[shelley]

First: the effort of going to 2 more websites and copy/paste your message that you really want to be heared is no where near the effort of checking all those messages from those forums everyday.

I hardly think that's necessary, seeing all the forums basically have the same readership. He wants to get heard by Ron and whoever makes the decisions for WCA, posting on the Yahoo group is sufficient, because Ron reads the Yahoo group.

Second: the number of non-europeans doesn't matter at all! I've heared this question so many times, but it's totally irrelevant. It's the face that there CAN be loads of non-europeans.

There COULD have been loads of non-Americans at each of our US Nationals. There COULD have been loads of non-(insert country) citizens at the (insert country) Open. But there weren't. Not enough to make a difference. And you still haven't answered the question. Even if there are, how does that keep you from crowning a European champion?

 

[Erik]

Okay, I plead no contest to your responses. But please respond to the last thing I wrote. How will having foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion. I think perhaps we were getting side tracked with an argument I did not mean to start. My apologies. But please answer my question.

I don't want, nor do I intend, for any of this to be a personal attack. I'll do my best to keep it this way. I'm sure you will as well.

Of course I don't want to be personal and I know/trust you don't want that too, I respect all of you as great persons/cubers!

The presence of non-europeans within a European Championship is just not possible in my opinion. It's about the Europeans who want to decide which is best of Europe. Just like in a school you want to see who's best of that school without children from other school's want to join, although it's of course no problem if those children from other schools want to watch and laugh or play unofficial matches against children from the competing school.

Furthermore, I know it is in a way, but why is it so important to know why we don't want it? The fact that we don't want is should be enough...

 

[rubikaz]

I mean, if you don't want to recognize a European Champion, that's your prerogative. I think it would be cool to have a European Champion as it would be cool to have a World Champion or a United States Champion.

You don't have to recognize it if you don't want to. Much like how you don't have to accept that WCA exists either.

No, I want an European champion. I have not said I don't want it. I wanted to say that with his affirmation it made not sense.

By the same reason I want an European champion, I also prefer an European Championship only for Europeans as I also prefer a Spanish championship closed.

Why should we ban closed competitions? If you don't like a closed competitions, don't go to the competitions (if you can't go because it is closed, never mind, you don't like it and if you can go, you can decide by yourself if you want to go).

I think that closed competitions should be always allowed and European Championship should be closed.

 

[rxdeath]

Tyson, I think it's pretty clear that Erik wasn't saying there couldn't be a European Champion. He was simply pointing out that he is concerned that rxdeath is next ready to campaign to eliminate European Champions.

i never said i would work to do that, although i think its unnecessary, having some silly title doesn't affect anyone or their ability to compete in a tournament. please don't put words in my mouth. also don't just make it out like i hate europeans, i love/hate everyone equally, i could care less where you're from, if i did want to elimiate those titles, i would work against the USA one, NAR, AU, and every other one equally.

rubikaz: why don't you give a good reason for your opinion instead of just repeating it over and over. i have ideas and facts to back my position up, can you do the same?

erik: what you 'want' isn't good enough, and if you can't provide a good reason why you want it, its just sinks your position even more. if you have a good one, tell me and maybe i'll change my mind. what is fair is the only option in my eyes. i could care less about personal desires, i'm only concered with equal opportunity for everyone.

 

[shelley]

The presence of non-europeans within a European Championship is just not possible in my opinion.

Why? There were non-Americans at all of our US National Championships. Everyone got along, everything went fine, we were still able to crown a US Champion.

 

[Tyson]

But why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?