Tyson
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Then what is it about? We've already had some people say that they're proud to be selfish.
Europe 2008
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Then what is it about? We've already had some people say that they're proud to be selfish.
rubikaz
Regular
Yes, but this kind of objective fact cannot be used to determined if the championship should be open or closed. I think that here we only can use opinions.
Jason
Regular
Well, yeah, it might be the case for some but not for the majority. It's about feeling part of a group. Sometimes you feel like going out to town with just your hockey team. Other times you feel like going out with no specific group. It doesn't mean you're intrinsically evil or anything, it means that you can identify to a subgroup, and it's a nice feeling. And just before people go on mad tangents, all this doesn't make you a Nazi or anything
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Tyson
Veteran
I did not mean to imply that just because one person said something that it applied to everyone. Thanks for pointing that out, and in the future if it's ever confusing, please do understand I would not make that generalization.
But this feeling of a group, isn't that just a mind set? Can't you feel good if you were to think about it differently? It seems that this 'feeling' you talk about, or the atmosphere you want is something that's fabricated in the mind. Why do you feel the need to be exclusive? Can't you be special in both cases?
And this subgroup, by definition of a subgroup, can you still have your same subgroup regardless of who's there? The purpose of the European Championships is to crown a European Champion. Can't this be done in the presence of foreigners? How does the admittance of foreigners directly contract this mission?
But this feeling of a group, isn't that just a mind set? Can't you feel good if you were to think about it differently? It seems that this 'feeling' you talk about, or the atmosphere you want is something that's fabricated in the mind. Why do you feel the need to be exclusive? Can't you be special in both cases?
And this subgroup, by definition of a subgroup, can you still have your same subgroup regardless of who's there? The purpose of the European Championships is to crown a European Champion. Can't this be done in the presence of foreigners? How does the admittance of foreigners directly contract this mission?
nicoJ
Regular
yeah, but as pocchman said
more american people rather than european people
slightly more, yes
i perfectlly agree with that
some things to say, anyway
1- why do you compare american people with european people?, please stephan, there won't be all american people. so i think we should compare EUROPEAN PEOPLE THAT WILL GO vs. AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT WILL GO. if america wins, i will PERFECTLLY agree that it HAS TO BE an open competition
but if they're coming 3, and +100 europeans... then.. i dont understand
it doesen't make sense...
2-i guess this is like a National competition in... Liechtenstein... and then everybody near there in germany, swiss people... will want to go
they all vote: +100 from both german countries and just 5 poor people from liechtenstein, that wanted their national competiton. finally is an open, and everybody that wants can go. OKAY, FINE, LET'S ALL FRENCH AND ITALIAN GUYS GO TOO!!! AND WHY NOT, AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL WANT!!
if it was an EUROPEAN, it should still being an european.
and as jason said, all this trouble is just to make 3 americans happy. 48% of the competitions around the world are in USA, so go to usa!!
PS: I DONT WANT TO OFFEND ANYBODY WHILE SAYING COUNTRY NAMES
more american people rather than european people
slightly more, yes
i perfectlly agree with that
some things to say, anyway
1- why do you compare american people with european people?, please stephan, there won't be all american people. so i think we should compare EUROPEAN PEOPLE THAT WILL GO vs. AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT WILL GO. if america wins, i will PERFECTLLY agree that it HAS TO BE an open competition
but if they're coming 3, and +100 europeans... then.. i dont understand
it doesen't make sense...
2-i guess this is like a National competition in... Liechtenstein... and then everybody near there in germany, swiss people... will want to go
they all vote: +100 from both german countries and just 5 poor people from liechtenstein, that wanted their national competiton. finally is an open, and everybody that wants can go. OKAY, FINE, LET'S ALL FRENCH AND ITALIAN GUYS GO TOO!!! AND WHY NOT, AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL WANT!!
if it was an EUROPEAN, it should still being an european.
and as jason said, all this trouble is just to make 3 americans happy. 48% of the competitions around the world are in USA, so go to usa!!
PS: I DONT WANT TO OFFEND ANYBODY WHILE SAYING COUNTRY NAMES
Stefan
Legend
I understand the hockey team group example. But "Europeans" aren't a closely connected group like that. And look at these two guys:
1) US citizen living in Europe with lots of connections to European cubers.
2) European citizen living in USA with no connections to European cubers.
Which one fits the "group" criterion better, concerning a European competition?
1) US citizen living in Europe with lots of connections to European cubers.
2) European citizen living in USA with no connections to European cubers.
Which one fits the "group" criterion better, concerning a European competition?
Jason
Regular
Of course, the group is a totally artificial fabrication. But so is fashion. But it doesn't mean you have to give it all up.
Yeah, of course you can crown a european champion with the presence of foreigners, it's just that people see it as forced upon them, and from the outside.
Yeah, of course you can crown a european champion with the presence of foreigners, it's just that people see it as forced upon them, and from the outside.
nicoJ
Regular
i didnt think about that
but argentina's people living in spain, cannot go to nationals, they have no way
so, europeans living in USA can come, but american people living in bilbao, near the event, will have to wait for a American championship
im sorry, really sorry for such people, if i were they i would have be angry, but there's no other way
as Stuart Mill said, the greatest thing is the thing that makes more people happy
but argentina's people living in spain, cannot go to nationals, they have no way
so, europeans living in USA can come, but american people living in bilbao, near the event, will have to wait for a American championship
im sorry, really sorry for such people, if i were they i would have be angry, but there's no other way
as Stuart Mill said, the greatest thing is the thing that makes more people happy
Erik
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Wow, did we really come to a point where we analyse who counts more as European and who not?
Lets all vote, but let the Europeans vote about this. If some country votes for a president but the rest of the world doesn't like him, then the rest of the world has no influence.
People from outside a group (All non-Europeans -especially American's it seems- can't change things within another group -Eureop- just because they have more people (size doesn't matter
) or are convinced their idea is better... They should merely have the posibility to request a change, but can't decide about it...
Lets all vote, but let the Europeans vote about this. If some country votes for a president but the rest of the world doesn't like him, then the rest of the world has no influence.
People from outside a group (All non-Europeans -especially American's it seems- can't change things within another group -Eureop- just because they have more people (size doesn't matter
) or are convinced their idea is better... They should merely have the posibility to request a change, but can't decide about it...Tyson
Veteran
as Stuart Mill said, the greatest thing is the thing that makes more people happy
So the United States should officially be a Christian nation?
rxdeath
Regular
I don't see why if anybody splits from the WCA, it would mean that I'm pathetic, but anyhow...
But there's probably a more important thing to all of this. What is scary is the fact that you believe that your opinion is some sort of universal truth, and you contnue to dismiss all else, whereas it is clear that others do not agree with you. So what you're effectively putting across is the impression that you think you're right and that everybody else is wrong, and you won't even bother considering anybody elses point of view. I understand perfectly well your point of view and respect it, but I equally understand people who organise and participate in French championships. Try to understand that people who like closed competitions are not selfish and it is not about pride-based motivation.
And why are you so hell bent on "ignorance"? I don't ignore the fact that you didn't make the final decision, but I am aware that you "inspired it". So save the "i laugh at your ignorance", it doesn't give you any extra credit
Anyway,It's good to hear that you still intend to come, I suppose I'll see you there : )[/QUOTE]
i haven't got upset once during this whole exchange, because its not personal to me. the yahoo group has been around much longer than this website, so its hardly 'obscure', and i value it more than this forum, so i posted there. when i joined this discussion it was to defend the view that i presented. i meant the inclusive 'you' about anyone that breaks off it wasn't directed to specifically you. do i think anyone is the devil for wanting closed competitions? not really, just selfish.
i'm just defending my views and saying why i think they are so important, i don't ask you to accept them. if the wca agrees with me, then take it up with them if you think its not fair, but i'm not pushing my opinion on anyone else, at least anymore then they are doing to me, and everyone does to anyone when a debate happens. you say i don't understand, but once again understanding doesn't breed agreement--i completely understand and whole heartedly disagree. to compete in a worldwide club and not invite the world, isn't fair in my eyes, so i tried and will try to stop it. feel free to counter my efforts.
i would be glad to stop working for this if you can tell me how a closed competition is fair to the other cubers in the world, and just because others can have one doesn't mean it's fair, two wrongs don't make a right. fair is equal opportunity for everyone all the time, is that definition flawed? i don't know you mean by 'credit', but even if people don't agree with me, i know that i'm a valued member of the community and my words have as much credit as they need.
erik:
european votes don't count more than other cuber votes, this is a world wide organization as iv'e said 1000x. its not politics, a sport or anything its just people cubing. there is no europe in cubing. there is no usa. we are all just one big group. there are no 'outsiders'-- this is the elitist talk i hope to kill with my efforts. i didn't make the change i did as you said and requested it. since to those organizing the tournament it was the right idea, it was changed.
ps- as an arugument point, i'm just as genetically european as any of you.
But there's probably a more important thing to all of this. What is scary is the fact that you believe that your opinion is some sort of universal truth, and you contnue to dismiss all else, whereas it is clear that others do not agree with you. So what you're effectively putting across is the impression that you think you're right and that everybody else is wrong, and you won't even bother considering anybody elses point of view. I understand perfectly well your point of view and respect it, but I equally understand people who organise and participate in French championships. Try to understand that people who like closed competitions are not selfish and it is not about pride-based motivation.
And why are you so hell bent on "ignorance"? I don't ignore the fact that you didn't make the final decision, but I am aware that you "inspired it". So save the "i laugh at your ignorance", it doesn't give you any extra credit
Anyway,It's good to hear that you still intend to come, I suppose I'll see you there : )[/QUOTE]
i haven't got upset once during this whole exchange, because its not personal to me. the yahoo group has been around much longer than this website, so its hardly 'obscure', and i value it more than this forum, so i posted there. when i joined this discussion it was to defend the view that i presented. i meant the inclusive 'you' about anyone that breaks off it wasn't directed to specifically you. do i think anyone is the devil for wanting closed competitions? not really, just selfish.
i'm just defending my views and saying why i think they are so important, i don't ask you to accept them. if the wca agrees with me, then take it up with them if you think its not fair, but i'm not pushing my opinion on anyone else, at least anymore then they are doing to me, and everyone does to anyone when a debate happens. you say i don't understand, but once again understanding doesn't breed agreement--i completely understand and whole heartedly disagree. to compete in a worldwide club and not invite the world, isn't fair in my eyes, so i tried and will try to stop it. feel free to counter my efforts.
i would be glad to stop working for this if you can tell me how a closed competition is fair to the other cubers in the world, and just because others can have one doesn't mean it's fair, two wrongs don't make a right. fair is equal opportunity for everyone all the time, is that definition flawed? i don't know you mean by 'credit', but even if people don't agree with me, i know that i'm a valued member of the community and my words have as much credit as they need.
erik:
european votes don't count more than other cuber votes, this is a world wide organization as iv'e said 1000x. its not politics, a sport or anything its just people cubing. there is no europe in cubing. there is no usa. we are all just one big group. there are no 'outsiders'-- this is the elitist talk i hope to kill with my efforts. i didn't make the change i did as you said and requested it. since to those organizing the tournament it was the right idea, it was changed.
ps- as an arugument point, i'm just as genetically european as any of you.
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Erik
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as Stuart Mill said, the greatest thing is the thing that makes more people happy
So the United States should officially be a Christian nation?
No, and besides the fact that a nation can't be classified as Christian but if you really want it you could call it a nation with a Christian majority.
Besides: - no Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Flying Spaghetti Monster nation at all -> nobody really angry
- yes Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Flying Spaghetti Monster nation -> Christians happy, the rest mad.
The total 'hapiness' will be when there is no decision made in which nation in is
And to continue on scenarios.. still my option 3 seems best to me...
@Clancy: if you want a change in the WCA way of doing things, this discussion would be on the WCA forum, but I didn't see any posts about that (when I looked yesterday) since 2007
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Stefan
Legend
Um, "should"? Are you saying this isn't exactly what happened?People from outside a group (All non-Europeans -especially American's it seems- can't change things within another group -Eureop- just because they have more people (size doesn't matter
Erik
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Maybe I should elaborate it further:
after they made that request (which has been done), it should be decided properly within that group if they like it. And I haven't seen a big majority of European people here which like the European Open 2008... (nor did I see the option before the change to vote)
after they made that request (which has been done), it should be decided properly within that group if they like it. And I haven't seen a big majority of European people here which like the European Open 2008... (nor did I see the option before the change to vote)
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Fairness is a difficult thing to define.
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/04/fairness.html
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/04/fairness.html
I'm not - I'm a direct descendant of Pocahontas (so I'm at least .003% non-European).
Tyson
Veteran
The fact that a nation can't be classified as Christian? What about The Islamic Republic of Iran?
Are you sure? If the Christians were happy, that would be 80%. Why don't we sacrifice the other 20% for the 80%? Do you really want to argue on total utility? Because if you want to go down this path, I expect that you have the proper background to support it.
Tyson
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Fairness is a difficult thing to define.
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/04/fairness.html
I'm not - I'm a direct descendant of Pocohontas (so I'm at least .003% non-European).
Me too. I'm probably about 0.003% European as well. The Dutch colonized Taiwan back in the 1600's. My grandfather had curly hair, with a slightly red tint.
Thank you for that link. And again, if you want to walk down this path of maximizing utility, I'm ready to argue this one. It's your call.
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Erik
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I didn't see anywhere a thread about this and besides that, it doesn't interest me at all....
rxdeath
Regular
you seem to want to dictate where i post. i will post wherever i please, and it will be where i think it will have the most effect. don't try and punk me out erik, i won't have it. this is a fair discussion and if you don't like the result, don't turn it into a witch hunt for me because i'm the one that inspired the change. if you think you have a good argument attack my ideas, not anything else about me.
Tyson
Veteran
You propose pleasing the majority at the expense of the minority. Is this really what you want to do?
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