Europe 2008

[Tyson]

Hey Jason,

But there are also checks and balances. President Bush might have most of the support of the House and the Senate, but he won't able to mandate Bible readings every 4 o'clock because there's a supreme court that would strike it down.

My main point is that just because everyone votes for it, it doesn't mean it's right, and you can't just follow the majority and say "tough" to the people who disagree. Many times, it's the minority right that is under attack.

I mean, is what I'm saying unreasonable? Please feel free to disagree. But this idea that if 80% of a group agrees on one thing and so it should be done that day, that's a private club. You basically kick out everyone who disagrees. I could think of many examples of abuse if things were actually done this way in the world, and I don't think they are.

 

[rubikaz]

Maybe the United States should hold a vote of everyone living in the United States on whether or not it should be a Christian country?

Religion is an individual thing. You can decide is you are Christian or not. It affects only you. Open or closed competition, it affects a more persons. So I think it is a "stupid" comparison...

 

[Jason]

So what do we do? Just accept the fact that it's an Open, and tough for everybody else who doesn't agree, just because rxdeath a.k.a Clancy Cochran decided he wanted to come to the party? Because that is the state of affairs

 

[Tyson]

Religion is an individual thing. You can decide is you are Christian or not. It affects only you. Open or closed competition, it affects a more persons. So I think it is a "stupid" comparison...

I really don't think this question is as stupid as you make it out to be. Even though religion is a personal thing, the United States government routinely makes laws in support of one religion over another.

http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_067125346.html

So really, you can choose whatever you want to believe, and no one really has a say in that. However, it does affect every American citizen because governments will pass laws that support one religion over the other. Even though religion is a personal choice, if government has a right to vote on it, they can impose it on others.

I hope my comparison makes a bit more sense now.

 

[Jason]

it doen't make that much sense. Everybody (europeans and non-europeans) were expecting it to be a closed competition. All of a sudden this Clancy guy comes out and says "no way José, I'm coming even though I'm not european, so change the format of the competition", and everybody has to bend over and take it

 

[Tyson]

So what do we do? Just accept the fact that it's an Open, and tough for everybody else who doesn't agree, just because rxdeath a.k.a Clancy Cochran decided he wanted to come to the party? Because that is the state of affairs

I don't understand "that is the state of affairs."

But in response, we've all had to make compromises over various issues. I compromised when 3x3x3 multi-bld was made into an event, and I compromised over the new starting procedure. No one can win all the time. Unless you're Lars Petrus. Because then you're just made of win.

 

[Jason]

it means, "that's what the present state is". 3x3x3 multi-bld was made into an event based upon concensus, as well as the new starting procedure, not because some guy just decided so. I actually don't care any more whether it's an open or closed competition anymore, I'm just shocked by the way it was decided and how everybody just has to accept it.

 

[Tyson]

it doen't make that much sense. Everybody (europeans and non-europeans) were expecting it to be a closed competition. All of a sudden this Clancy guy comes out and says "no way José, I'm coming even though I'm not european, so change the format of the competition", and everybody has to bend over and take it

At the same time, this has been something in discussion since 2005. Would anyone have listened to Clancy if what he said had no merit?

 

[AvGalen]

I hope I will meet you, Shelley, Clancy and many others (including Stefan) at the US Open this year.

Yes, I hope so too. It will help me bring my plan to completion! Oh I have grand plans.

You already got Stefan interested by telling him that Shelley might win the "Stefan Pochmann event".

Now you got me intrigued.

I now Lars is planning on coming, do you also have something in store for him?

Or is your plan to turn the US Open into a US closed just before we get to compete

I must say I (and many of my Fellow cubers) have enjoyed the Revolution I got last year at the US Open. It has caused a lot of physical and emotional discomfort, but also made us laugh dozens of times. Just imagine 6 guys sitting in the complete dark at 2:30 at night in a Twister-like construction of arms. Or imagine getting up to 250 a couple of times in a row while 1 person is lying on the floor to push the button on the D-face. (really difficult to keep your arm lifted above your head for that long)

 

[Tyson]

YES! Lars V.? That completes my plan! I've only dreamed that the three of you would come.

You'll notice that from the start, I called it the US Nationals and Open 2008. Would never exclude you guys from the competition... I even made prizes just for you!

Of course... I could be full of it. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Jason]

Of course the idea has merit, even though not everybody would agree with his point of view. But the point here is that there was no serious consensus for modifying the format of the Euro competition, and it has made a lot of people unhappy, and for what, just so that Clancy can come along and have his fun as well. So what have we gained? A lot of angry europeans and a happy Clancy that probably won't even dare set foot at the competition anyway. It has generated discussion which is good I suppose, but do you really expect, for example, people in France to stop organising a french championship? They won't. And if there's a ban, it'll cause a split.
Man I'm fed up of sounding like a party pooper : (

 

[Tyson]

I mean no disrespect, but if you sound like a party-pooper, I think it's because on some level that is sort of what's going on.

But again, why is it so hard to organize a competition where you let everyone compete, but treat the awards as if you held two different events?

 

[shelley]

Europe has a tradition where sports are viewed at multiple levels. It starts within your local age group in your local club and goes up to city/regional/national/european/world-championships.
Europe also has a tradition in open Tournaments where people from all over the world are welcome to participate.
Tradition might not always make sense to outsiders and sometimes outsiders that point out how weird/bad/unethical a tradition is are actually right. But they should realise that it's not their choose to change it, that there will be resistance, that it will be a slow process and that they might actually be wrong.

The United States has local/state/regional/national level championships, both open and closed, for many sports and activities as well. It's not a foreign concept to us. But give us a reason why cube competitions also have to be held this way, aside from "it's always been done this way" or "other sports do it this way." Cubing is different from other sports. Participation is much more open, you don't have to be part of an established team or league or whatever in order to go to a tournament, and as far as I know, nobody does this for money.

It would make a little more sense if people had to qualify for the European Championships, and it was closed to only top competitors from national/regional level competitions. Isn't this how national/continental level championships in other sports work? In that scenario, I could understand it being closed. You earned your way there. But being closed to citizens of certain countries but open to everyone else just seems arbitrary and unfair.

Every competition in the US has been open, even our national championships. The reason we keep comparing our nationals with your continental level competitions is that in terms of geographic and population size (and cuber population), the US is more comparable to Europe than to, say, Hungary. It's not because we think the US is more important than any single European country.

 

[rxdeath]

Of course the idea has merit, even though not everybody would agree with his point of view. But the point here is that there was no serious consensus for modifying the format of the Euro competition, and it has made a lot of people unhappy, and for what, just so that Clancy can come along and have his fun as well. So what have we gained? A lot of angry guys and a happy Clancy that probably won't even dare set foot at the competition anyway. It has generated discussion which is good I suppose, but do you really expect, for example, people in France to stop organising a french championship? They won't. And if there's a ban, it'll cause a split

lol you're amazingly ignorant. you have no arguments and you've broken down into a temper tantrum. first, i didn't make this decision, i just presented and argument, and the organizers agreed, so you're pointing your anger at the wrong person. if anyone had been as vocal before it was changed maybe it wouldn't have, your inaction is the only thing to blame.

second if you think i give a **** what anyone thinks of me about this, and that i wouldn't show up because i'd feel intimidated, your dead wrong. if you think it's about me, how about this: i would gladly give my word to never compete in a european championship as long as they were open for everyone else, but i'd never not go just because i think some people are still crying over the better format that i inspired to happen.

i've never made this personal, and you did. if you have hate for me i don't give a crap, because you're a joke to me. i laugh at your ignorance. if anyone wants to split off from the wca, then you're pathetic. waah i'm taking my ball and going home.

but guess what, you can't do anything about it. right now its open and i bet its going to stay that way. if it changes back, its for the worse, but i won't loose any sleep over it. i'll see all the selfish whiners at the 09 rule draftings.


avg: i merely showed how rules != fair by any means, and to say that rule is ridiculous and other competitions should be closed is different, i think is flawed. exclusion is exclusion and they should all be stopped. no one can refute the definition of all opportunity for all cubers all the time, without selfish or pride-based motivation.

 

[rubikaz]

I really don't think this question is as stupid as you make it out to be. Even though religion is a personal thing, the United States government routinely makes laws in support of one religion over another.

http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_067125346.html

So really, you can choose whatever you want to believe, and no one really has a say in that. However, it does affect every American citizen because governments will pass laws that support one religion over the other. Even though religion is a personal choice, if government has a right to vote on it, they can impose it on others.

I hope my comparison makes a bit more sense now.

Ok, a bit more ok, but... the problem is not religion, your government make laws and you can choose (with the vote of all you) the government. So maybe you should do the comparison (Goverment) <-> (open or closed)

On the other hand if we (pro-closed European championship) compare it with other sports, you (pro-open European championship) say that we cant compare it because blablabla. So... why are you do it now?

 

[Stefan]

The reason we keep comparing our nationals with your continental level competitions is that in terms of geographic and population size (and cuber population), the US is more comparable to Europe than to, say, Hungary.

In terms of WCA competitors you're actually slightly larger:
USA - 995
Europe - 937

 

[Tyson]

I really don't think this question is as stupid as you make it out to be. Even though religion is a personal thing, the United States government routinely makes laws in support of one religion over another.

http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_067125346.html

So really, you can choose whatever you want to believe, and no one really has a say in that. However, it does affect every American citizen because governments will pass laws that support one religion over the other. Even though religion is a personal choice, if government has a right to vote on it, they can impose it on others.

I hope my comparison makes a bit more sense now.

Ok, a bit more ok, but... the problem is not religion, your government make laws and you can choose (with the vote of all you) the government. So maybe you should do the comparison (Goverment) <-> (open or closed)

On the other hand if we (pro-closed European championship) compare it with other sports, you (pro-open European championship) say that we cant compare it because blablabla. So... why are you do it now?

I was merely trying to provide an example of why a majority vote doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right thing to do. Imagine for some reason that no one liked your country, and the entire European Union voted, and they decided to exclude your country from the championships. Maybe they didn't feel you were "European" enough, or some reasons why simply have no merit. But they were the majority and they won. The EU should protect your rights, even if everyone dislikes you right?

Now, your country probably doesn't have much of a problem. So... hmm... *brainstorms*... but yeah. My point is that just because a majority of people vote one way, it doesn't mean that their decision is correct or fair. These things are very different and should not be confused with each other. First, determine fairness through objective facts. Votes represent opinions.

 

[rubikaz]

Now, your country probably doesn't have much of a problem. So... hmm... *brainstorms*... but yeah. My point is that just because a majority of people vote one way, it doesn't mean that their decision is correct or fair. These things are very different and should not be confused with each other. First, determine fairness through objective facts. Votes represent opinions.

What means objective fact? When you write here (or other user), you don't use objective facts, you use facts that you think they are objectives so you are use your opinion. We all are giving our opinions.

 

[Jason]

To rxdeath:
Me, braking down in a temper tantrum? That's pretty rich coming from you ; )
The reason why people weren't so vocal before this decision is that the subject was posted on one of the more obscure cubing forums, and that most people weren't even aware of the discussion. Why didn't you post here? This is the main point of why people are upset, there was no exposure of all this to the vast majority of us. so don't bother talking about inaction in this precise case.
I don't see why if anybody splits from the WCA, it would mean that I'm pathetic, but anyhow...
But there's probably a more important thing to all of this. What is scary is the fact that you believe that your opinion is some sort of universal truth, and you contnue to dismiss all else, whereas it is clear that others do not agree with you. So what you're effectively putting across is the impression that you think you're right and that everybody else is wrong, and you won't even bother considering anybody elses point of view. I understand perfectly well your point of view and respect it, but I equally understand people who organise and participate in French championships. Try to understand that people who like closed competitions are not selfish and it is not about pride-based motivation.
And why are you so hell bent on "ignorance"? I don't ignore the fact that you didn't make the final decision, but I am aware that you "inspired it". So save the "i laugh at your ignorance", it doesn't give you any extra credit
Anyway,It's good to hear that you still intend to come, I suppose I'll see you there : )

 

[Tyson]

Objective fact: Open National Championships have been run in both 2004 and 2006. I agree, not everything I say is objective fact. But the statement above is an objective fact.