Knock-Off vs Real Puzzles: A Suggestion

[ChrisBird]

*Removed*

 

[Bomber]

Originally Posted by Bomber
" I realise that this is obviously a knock off but some of us like different colour cubes, buying things officially may feel different, namely that lack of guilt and considerable hit to the wallet but sometimes we want a little bit more variety."

"Unfortunately without being impatient or selfish things will not get done, it can either motivate people to counteract 'knock-offs' or do the opposite - make people give up and let others sell your ideas illegally...I can either pay upwards of £15. or a measly £3.87. I am by no means lacking financially but I'm afraid the latter option is too tempting. Sorry for being so "selfish"."
Whabam.

My opinion was confined to one thread, my opinion applied to a void cube.

Whabam? Thanks for admitting that it was me that this thread is about; I appreciate it.

I also like it how you linked "let others sell your ideas illegally... I can either pay upwards of £15" with that handy ellipsis, that totally states my opinion. I, or anyone for that matter, can either get a Void Cube for £15+ or £3.87, I never said they should. You also know that I didn't even make that purchase. This is down to a simple void cube clone, how can you accuse me of recommending much higher value products such as the V-Cube?

I can admit that my posts have been ambiguous but how can you mix up suggestion and recommendation? Had I known you'd be so pompous as to create this thread then I might have been more specific.

 

[MichaelErskine]

I don't believe that speedsolving.com has a knock-off policy like twistypuzzles.com has - and whilst the two sites have a massive overlap the most striking difference is that twistypuzzles is more about the creation of new puzzles and, quite rightly, the efforts of the creators are held in high regard as a foundation of the community that has been built there. Everybody on twistypuzzles is well aware of the policy and there is good guidance available on identification of fakes and how to obtain genuine products. There are also a high proportion of committed collectors who invest sometimes inordinate sums in their puzzles.

This is not twistypuzzles.com.

You are free to judge people for their choices but I'd prefer to see less of the ugly condemnation of individuals for suggesting they are interested in a novel variation on a puzzle.

You want to formulate some guidelines? Put it in the wiki. Word it well, make it crystal clear and win over the reader with your reasoned argument such that the better choice will be taken freely. Then refer people to the wiki rather than having yet another rant and accusation thread.

Play nice.

 

[puzzlemaster]

Honestly, making a thread and using a person's opinion as a reason for creating it very very rude. Making this thread in order to discuss knockoffs and originals was justified. However making this thread in order to bash said user wasn't right. It was wrong to use him as a reason for this thread.

 

[PharaohsVizier]

I'm confused. I'm still new, but couldn't you say DIY cubes are fakes/knockoffs of the original Rubik's Cube? Doesn't that mean if you buy a DIY cube or a C4Y cube or whatever it doesn't support Rubik's?

If that's true, then doesn't that mean that a lot of people on this forum have knockoff cubes? And then according to these guys it is morally wrong?

Honestly, I have NO shame in buying fakes or knockoffs. I have several real Rubik's Cubes and several fakes. I mean honestly, I bought a fake mirror cube that just arrived, does that mean I stole from the inventor? Not really, if it wasn't $4, I wouldn't have bought it, plain and simple. This is a business. I mean Rubik's 360, no patent, well that sucks, if they didn't think this would happen, then the company is run by idiots.

Everyone is trying to make some money here. If you stop buying fakes, you are depriving someone in China of money, is that morally wrong? I mean arguably, you could say factory workers in China need the job, those guys are poorer, are in more need of the money. I'm not really trying to justify it, I'm just saying that these are businesses and we are consumers. If they can't give us the best price to performance deal, then they shouldn't expect to get our business. I mean if there is another company that can do the same thing or better for less money, then congrats, they deserve the money. That's my view at least. (pause and wait for flaming)

 

[ChrisBird]

I never used this to bash him, if you re read the first post, I clearly said that someone (no names) said that it was fine, and I made this post so that we could have a sticky about buying knock-offs vs real cubes. And to get some discussion going.

 

[brunson]

we need to make sure everyone knows (as Sandy has done on the TwistyPuzzle Forums with his sticky) that buying knock-offs is selfish, dishonest, and wrong.

I believe this is a very bold statement you are making. I totally support Mr. Verdes, and original inventors, and will not buy a knock-off but i believe others have circumstances that overtake this. For example, many of the users on this forum are of young age, and thus are unemployed, or have very low paying / low hour jobs. With the cost of puzzles these days, some people have to make a opportunity cost decision. It's purely an economic purchase decision, as is the the decision to create the puzzles in the first place.

I've read countless threads where users are debating between multiple puzzles to buy because they cant afford both / or many. there are comments all over about "waiting till Christmas to get the V-cube" etc. The monetary factor is most likely the driving factor in which puzzle young (or even old well-paid job) users decide with. Because of this, a sticky would be nice, but if it's purpose is to discourage users, i believe it will fail (hopefully not), but unless we all end up with some extra cash somehow...which we are definitely not, in fact with the current economy status all of our bank accounts are going down...so in the end, even though morals are involved, money will most likely be the deciding factor on original Vs. knock-off

You're right.

And if they're really, really broke they should just steal them because their need to own a toy is far more important than the livelihood and just reward of an innovative inventor or the personal property of others.

I appreciate the sarcasm.

I'm not saying it's right, its just the way things are. Think about in simple terms...there are LUCKY CHARMS, and then there are MARSHMALLOW MATEYS. The later is obviously a knock-off, however cheaper and more economically sound...there is a reason these products exist. And for every product on sale, there is a knock-off, and chances are we use them every day without the thought you provided (in bold). It may not be right, but it happens every day millions of times outside the cube-solving community...it's just a fact and it seems worth mentioning.

I posted my comment, then left work for my commute home. On the way I started thinking about your post and it became clear that you weren't advocating the practice, you were only explaining it. In that light, I'll stand behind my comment, but absolutely concede that it wasn't your intention (as far as I can tell) to support the purchase of these knockoffs.

As far as your example in this post, I don't think it's perfectly analagous. You can't patent a chocolate cake. Similarly, you can't patent "a three by three cube that rotates and has colors". You can, however, patent a springform pan, and similarly you can patent the design of a mechanism to create a 3x3 cube puzzle that is unique and non-derivative of previous patents or prior art.

 

[brunson]

I never used this to bash him, if you re read the first post, I clearly said that someone (no names) said that it was fine, and I made this post so that we could have a sticky about buying knock-offs vs real cubes. And to get some discussion going.

Again, I'm unsure of the patent status of the void cube. Someone show me that the mechanism is under an active patent and the knockoffs are infringing, and that will become a taboo topic.

Just as a counter point, there was speculation that one of the prototypes seen recently on the forums was a different design than Verdes' V-cube. If that's the fact then there's no reason it can't be a topic of discussion.

What the V-Cube knockoffs boil down to is: They are illegal in the US. We do not discuss illegal activities or products on this forum. What defines illegal is US and international law because the server resides in the US and... um... Internationalia. :rolleyes:

 

[Bomber]

I never used this to bash him, if you re read the first post, I clearly said that someone (no names) said that it was fine, and I made this post so that we could have a sticky about buying knock-offs vs real cubes. And to get some discussion going.

Yes, you started with no names. Now it has become obvious that the thread is about me; you basically admitted it. You have to understand the pragmatic implications as well as the semantics.

 

[mark3]

I think the main problem with the non v-cube knockoffs being 'allowed' is the fact that you can't go to voidcube.com and buy one. Its actually pretty hard to get any of these puzzles, where the knockoffs are widely available. I would much rather buy a real puzzle, but if its for an exorbitant price due to limited availability, I really can't justify it. If the inventor wanted to have people buy his puzzles, he would spend the money to make them more widely available.

http://tribox.cart.fc2.com/ca2/114/p4-r1-s/

There we go, took me 1:23.86 seconds to find this NON KNOCK OFF Void Cube. Now everyone knows. If we all just do a little research it is easy to find.

 

[Bomber]

I think the main problem with the non v-cube knockoffs being 'allowed' is the fact that you can't go to voidcube.com and buy one. Its actually pretty hard to get any of these puzzles, where the knockoffs are widely available. I would much rather buy a real puzzle, but if its for an exorbitant price due to limited availability, I really can't justify it. If the inventor wanted to have people buy his puzzles, he would spend the money to make them more widely available.

http://tribox.cart.fc2.com/ca2/114/p4-r1-s/

There we go, took me 1:23.86 seconds to find this NON KNOCK OFF Void Cube. Now everyone knows. If we all just do a little research it is easy to find.

Equally easy to find is this Void Cube from a well known, reputable British seller. Can you tell whether or not it is genuine? It's plain to see that it's not down to the website but also the cost of the cube and shipping. Would a UK resident rather choose TriBox or Puzl?

 

[brunson]

I'm confused. I'm still new, but couldn't you say DIY cubes are fakes/knockoffs of the original Rubik's Cube? Doesn't that mean if you buy a DIY cube or a C4Y cube or whatever it doesn't support Rubik's?

If that's true, then doesn't that mean that a lot of people on this forum have knockoff cubes? And then according to these guys it is morally wrong?

Please read the entire thread.

We're not concerned with knockoffs in general, I'm talking about patent infringing counterfeit products.

 

[soccerking813]

There are times that it is reasonable for people to buy a knock-off puzzle. For example, here is a rubik's bump cube from DX. http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20001 $21.
The same puzzle, but a knock-off, $5. http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.25028

 

[brunson]

There are times that it is reasonable for people to buy a knock-off puzzle. For example, here is a rubik's bump cube from DX. http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20001 $21.
The same puzzle, but a knock-off, $5. http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.25028

Is the bump cube protected by an active US or International patent? I'm going to guess not, because the intrinsic mechanism does not differ enough from a regular rubik's 3x3 to warrant a different patent and, as I've pointed out, the patent on the original 3x3 has expired.

 

[ChrisBird]

Now on the other hand, if you buy a knock-off V-Cube, not only are you saying that the original inventors time and effort is worthless, and that you won't pay him for his work, you are also saying that you don't care about the time that was put into it, the money they put into it, or the law itself. You are basically slapping Mr. Verdes in the face saying "silly man, I can get your puzzle over here for cheaper."
After you do this, is Mr. Verdes likely to make more V-Cubes? (2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 10, 11 etc) No he isn't, why? Because he is not being given the credit he deserves, and he does not have the money he needs to continue doing it.

Not saying you are wrong soccerking, but how would you respond to this when buying the knock off Bump cube? Just curious.

 

[masterofthebass]

I think the main problem with the non v-cube knockoffs being 'allowed' is the fact that you can't go to voidcube.com and buy one. Its actually pretty hard to get any of these puzzles, where the knockoffs are widely available. I would much rather buy a real puzzle, but if its for an exorbitant price due to limited availability, I really can't justify it. If the inventor wanted to have people buy his puzzles, he would spend the money to make them more widely available.

http://tribox.cart.fc2.com/ca2/114/p4-r1-s/

There we go, took me 1:23.86 seconds to find this NON KNOCK OFF Void Cube. Now everyone knows. If we all just do a little research it is easy to find.

you didn't understand my point. I know you can get them from tribox. The problem with tribox is that its a completely non-retail environment to buy things from. Just because I personally feel like selling puzzles, doesn't make me a retailer. Tribox is also not the easiest place to order from. V-cubes has a very clear, very accessible website where you can buy every product they make. There is no such thing for Gentosha's puzzles. You have to go through hoops to pay through the nose for it. If you notice, not many online places (except in more asian communities) are actually selling fake v-cubes. Perhaps this is a reason, but I definitely think that having good accessibility to a puzzle allows for people to want to buy the real thing.

 

[soccerking813]

I would say that Erno Rubik has made a fortune from his 3x3, and is not in desperate need for funds. Whereas Verdes has not made a best-selling puzzle before, and he does need money. It seems that if there are companies that can make a cube for 5 dollars, there is not reason obvious to me that Erno Rubik needs to put a $20 price on it. If it was like 10 dollars I would understand, but 20?

 

[brunson]

It doesn't matter how much money anyone has made off of anything. If there's an active patent on the product, discussion of where to buy knockoffs of *that* product will not be tolerated on this forum.

We also do not discuss stealing cars, blackmail, embezzlement, illegal drugs or child pornography. How hard is it to understand this differentiation?

 

[Inf3rn0]

This is a good point! When i finally get the bigger cubes im definatley gona buy proper v-cubes.

 

[CharlieCooper]

My view to knock-off puzzles is obviously that I do not want to buy them where at all possible, because I do not want to feel as though I am taking any of the credit from the original inventor.

To a certain extent, as Dan said, I think the inventor should make it possible for his puzzles to be easily obtainable by potential customers. When I started cubing, I have to say that I didn't have a clue who invented what and where I should get it, I just knew I wanted a pyraminx and got the first one I could find. Perhaps this sort of information should be made available in a possible sticky.

I think calling somebody dishonest and selfish is a little strong, when they might be unaware of how to obtain an original, or have the means to. Also, just a thought, but I mean is it just as dishonest and selfish to buy cheap cola instead of Coca Cola products for example?!