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big cubes subsets

  • Thread starter Thread starter Deleted member 36445
  • Start date Start date
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Deleted member 36445

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I'm thinking about the best way to solve some subsets on big cubes.

for example:

. how to solve <2R U> on 4x4?

. how to solve 5x5 if only F and U are scrambled. you should on use L, U, R, F and M slices but without messing what is already solved.

etc
 
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Are you aiming for speed, or just being able to solve? I think the first thing I would try to do is figure out some commutators or algorithms that work in <2R U>

I will probably try more in the morning as it is quite late here
 
By rotating the other way
Sorry my description of moves was incorrect. I meant 3 movers just like on f2l but using L', R and M slices/wide moves.

this is wrong: [<R 2R 3R 4R L'>,<U>]

What I meant was
R U R'
R U2 R'
R U' R'
2R U 2R'
2R U2 2R'
2R U' 2R'
L' U L
L' U2 L
L' U' L
3R U 2R'
4R U 4R'
3Rw U 3Rw'
M' U M
m' U M
etc...

In this subset only F and U are scrambled and you should solve F and U centers, edges and corners

yes you can use F moves too but without messing what's solved.

2R' F 2R
L F2 L'
2L F' 2L'
etc...
 
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do you have any idea on a good aproach to solve those subsets?
@Jorian Meeuse

I'm pretty sure you can solve parity with 2gen on 4x4

I wanted to know of good methods to solve those cases, that could lead to a direct solve method on big cubes

for 4x4 I thought on beginning by solving centers by making bars then cycling them. but maybe there is a more efficient way

if you begin with edge pairing you can't preserve them.

it's a real puzzle!
 
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for 4x4 2gen,

What about this:
1. put two wing on D
2. cycle wings on top by taking on wing and putting it a different way.
3. finish by solving the wing on D. somehow

 Twizzle link 
2R U 2R' U2 2R U 2R'


 Twizzle link 
2R U' 2R' U2 2R U' 2R'


 Twizzle link 
2R' U 2R U2 2R' U 2R
 
for 4x4 2gen,

I'll make script with my simulator later to find cases by combining the possible ways to break and restore pieces.
I'll try using a solver rokicki and lucas suggested too.
 
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Are you aiming for speed, or just being able to solve? I think the first thing I would try to do is figure out some commutators or algorithms that work in <2R U>

I will probably try more in the morning as it is quite late here
Yeah I'm doing exactly that atm
Not aiming anything, just curious to see what the community can develop to solve this problem
 
( irrelevant info to this thread )

are you wanting to improve faster then go on the

speedcubing zoom meeting thread​

and say ( I'm in ) the you will be entered in the zoom meeting that I'm helping to try and sort out.
 
Yeah I'm doing exactly that atm
Not aiming anything, just curious to see what the community can develop to solve this problem
Oh boy do I have a video series for you! (About odd parity algorithms, but I did need to come up with commutators for most cases addressed.) I spent a lot of time figuring this stuff out in the past! (Watch videos in sequence, as the content is mostly cumulative.)

But also see this thread (starting from the post linked).
 
Oh boy do I have a video series for you! (About odd parity algorithms, but I did need to come up with commutators for most cases addressed.) I spent a lot of time figuring this stuff out in the past! (Watch videos in sequence, as the content is mostly cumulative.)

But also see this thread (starting from the post linked).
Thanks that's very helpful!!

You always have very relevant things to share thanks so much.

I'm gonna watch the rest of the videos tomorrow

for 2gen 4x4 there are lots of moves, it doesn't seem very practical tho
 
I'm gonna watch the rest of the videos tomorrow
I won't hold you to that, as it's a lot of content! But yeah, 2-gen is not very practical for much of anything for big cubes . . . Maybe if you reduce a fully scrambled big cube to become in a commonly restricted move set like 2-gen (which is very hard to do), then maybe it may be interesting to solve the restrictive move set at that point. But it's still very interesting.

People on twistypuzzles have invented all kinds of bandaged cubes. Most of them naturally require more moves than the normal nxnxn, because of the move restrictions (obviously). It's possible that mastering a bandaged puzzle can give you new insights for the nxnxn.
 
I won't hold you to that, as it's a lot of content! But yeah, 2-gen is not very practical for much of anything for big cubes . . . Maybe if you reduce a fully scrambled big cube to become in a commonly restricted move set like 2-gen (which is very hard to do), then maybe it may be interesting to solve the restrictive move set at that point. But it's still very interesting.

People on twistypuzzles have invented all kinds of bandaged cubes. Most of them naturally require more moves than the normal nxnxn, because of the move restrictions (obviously). It's possible that mastering a bandaged puzzle can give you new insights for the nxnxn.
That's so cool!
That means I can't solve any state with 2gen right.
It makes sense if you think that you have to reduce the 3x3 to solve 2gen state. (Permuted corners, oriented edges)
What about big cubes? What are the conditions to be able to solve 2gen? And what can't I solve?
 
That means I can't solve any state with 2gen right.
That's correct. Even on the 3x3x3, where it may appear that some positions should be 2-gen friendly (solvable with only <R, U> moves), they are not. (Fun fact: For the <F, F', F2, B, B', B2, L, L', L2, R, R', R2> 3x3x3 move set, you are able to do a U or U' move, but a 4 edges must be flipped! See my post. I posted such an algorithm at the end of that post, but see the 23 move algorithm at the beginning of this later post.)

It makes sense if you think that you have to reduce the 3x3 to solve 2gen state. (Permuted corners, oriented edges)
Which makes me think that you understand what I just mentioned above pretty well.

What about big cubes? What are the conditions to be able to solve 2gen? And what can't I solve?
Well, it varies, depending on the "type of 2-gen" you have.

With 2-gen Type 1 from my video series (<U, r>, where r is just the inner layer slice), there isn't much of any restriction, at least on the 4x4x4. For example, Bruce wrote a LL wing 2-gen solver and found optimal solutions for all 8! wing LL cases with this code (again, like me ever playing with Ksolve, I never ran this code). And clearly the bottom corners must be solved, and the top ones must be able to be solved by AUF. And, as long as it's not the supercube, there is no restriction for the X-centers. (But obviously, if you consider the 4x4x4 supercube, then all other centers (not in reach of <U, r> moves) need to be solved (supercube-wise) before attempting to complete the 4x4x4 supercube with <U, r> moves.)

However, as you can (will) see in my 2-gen Type 5 video, I mentioned (discovered) that with a position like this r2 Uw Bw' Uw' r Uw Rw Bw r' Bw' Rw' Bw Uw' r, even though the X-center pieces affected appear to be in reach of <3Uw, Rw> moves, it's only possible to "flip" that dedge in that moveset. The X centers cannot be touched . . . at least if you want to also exchange them simultaneously as the 2 wings . . . at least with my limited 3 hours experience worth of experimentation.

Edit:
However, as you can (will) see in my 2-gen Type 5 video, I mentioned (discovered) that with a position like this r2 Uw Bw' Uw' r Uw Rw Bw r' Bw' Rw' Bw Uw' r, even though the X-center pieces affected appear to be in reach of <3Uw, Rw> moves, it's only possible to "flip" that dedge in that moveset. The X centers cannot be touched . . . at least if you want to also exchange them simultaneously as the 2 wings . . . at least with my limited 3 hours experience worth of experimentation.
After watching the video on it, it's actually the opposite of what I said. It's possible to generate that position in the move set, but it could be impossible generate a conjugate of it in this move set, such that the 4 center pieces are swapped with center pieces of the same color!

Resuming original post . . .

In fact, I don't know if it's even possible to flip 1 dedge and permute exactly 4 centers simultaneously (which is a very common occurrence in 4x4x4 single dedge flip algorithms). A (genuinely PURE) single dedge flip may be all you can do in that regard.

As you can see in my post on math.stackechange regarding how to calculate exactly how many 3x3x3 positions are solvable with using only <U, R> moves, specifically:
Potential Sketch of Proof 1

Consider either the U face or R face. There are (4!)/4 = 6 possible 4-cycles and (4!)/(2^2*2!) = 3 possible 2 2-cycles in 4 objects. Using < R,U > moves alone, only two of the six possible 4-cycle permutations are reachable in < R,U > (one of the three distinct 4-cycles and its inverse) and only one of the three 2 2-cycles is reachable in < R,U >. Since we can write any of the 6 possible 4-cycles as a product of any of one of the other 4-cycles and a 3-cycle, clearly this shows that it's not possible to do a 3-cycle of corners in < R,U >. A similar argument holds true for the 2 2-cycle.

It could be (mostly likely be) that the move set <3Uw, Rw> also restricts the type of cycles we can do with the centers. 3x3x3 movesets like <U2, F2, D2, B2, L2, R2> don't allow for all 43 quintillion 3x3x3 positions (see Jaap's page for the exact amount of "only" 663,552 positions).

And so it may be for 2-gen types 2-4, but maybe these unexpected situations just happen with Type 5. (Not sure.)

Basically, the key to answering your question (for a specific cube size and/or specific "type"/variation of 2-gen . . . or more generally, "subset"), the rule for permutations is, if you can do a 2-cycle of a certain piece type with a specific move set, then you can do ANY permutation of that piece type with that move set. (Because you can solve any permutation/unordered list of objects by a series of swaps.)

Therefore, for move sets which allow odd permutations (<U2, F2, D2, B2, L2, R2> is an example which does NOT allow/generate odd permutations), finding out if you can (with the limited number of possible moves you can use) do a swap (2-cycle) of pieces in EVERY orbit will be a good test on whether all positions, which visually appear to be solvable in a big cube subset, can in fact be solved/generated with the available moves in the move set.

And for piece orbits in which a move set only allows even permutations for, see if you can do a 3-cycle in each of them. If so, then all (even) permutations all that piece orbit are able to be solved.
 
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( irrelevant info to this thread )
Here is something also irrelevant to this thread, but at least it holds a similar theoretical idea: Inversion by Conjugation.

You can actually invert a move sequence that generates an nxnxn cube scramble by conjugating it! But the catch is (and why it's relevant to this topic, especially to the theory I mentioned in my previous post) is that there is a limited number of positions that Inversion by Conjugation is possible for. You can determine/count how many such positions are possible to invert their generating move sequence by conjugation, but I never looked into that (especially not for the nxnxn)!

@Filipe Teixeira , it appears that yahoo search can still be used to find old speedsolving threads. But Google is still ineffective!
 
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