Benelux Open 2009

[Stefan]

Ok... well at least I have its German record. Yay.

 

[TMOY]

Well, I couldn't find a good insertion for a nice LL.

First Gagou's 174-move solution at Swiss Open (which unfortunately was DNF because of a writing mistake), then your 376-move solution... We should definitely add MMC (Most Moves Contest) to the list of WCA official events
And what's the problem with getting only 4 hours of sleep ?

 

[Gunnar]

I will post that 20 move solution later tonight. If anyone knows any short algs that permute 4 corners (without changing the rest of the cube) please let me know. Doing 2 corner-3-cycle-insertions within the time-limit isn't something I can do normally

Hi!

I look forward to see your 20-move start, since I've become quite interested in fewest moves. I'm also trying to find some good ways to end the solves to be able to get sub-30 solutions. A few algs for permuting corners:

2+2:
L'R'U2LR FBU2F'B' U2 [11]
(RUR'U')*3 [12]
(FR'F'R)*3 [12]
and all their variations (U, U', U2 etc)
U F2 U R2 U' F2 L2 D B2 D' L2 U' [12]

5-cycle:
R2B2L2F2 U F2L2B2R2 D [10]
(R2UR2U')*3 [12]



Also, I remember that in Spain you showed my a way to do edge 3-cycles in 8 moves but I don't remember and can't figure out how. Can you tell again?

 

[gogozerg]

You had a 376 moves solution for the FMC :confused::confused::confused:

Is this result/behaviour supposed to be cool or something?

Shame on him.

 

[KJiptner]

yes, I agree entirely.

 

[tim]

Also, I remember that in Spain you showed my a way to do edge 3-cycles in 8 moves but I don't remember and can't figure out how. Can you tell again?

r R' U2 r' R U2 ? I only know 8 move 3-cycles in STM.

 

[AvGalen]

I will post that 20 move solution later tonight. If anyone knows any short algs that permute 4 corners (without changing the rest of the cube) please let me know. Doing 2 corner-3-cycle-insertions within the time-limit isn't something I can do normally

Hi!

I look forward to see your 20-move start, since I've become quite interested in fewest moves. I'm also trying to find some good ways to end the solves to be able to get sub-30 solutions. A few algs for permuting corners:

2+2:
L'R'U2LR FBU2F'B' U2 [11]
(RUR'U')*3 [12]
(FR'F'R)*3 [12]
and all their variations (U, U', U2 etc)
U F2 U R2 U' F2 L2 D B2 D' L2 U' [12]

5-cycle:
R2B2L2F2 U F2L2B2R2 D [10]
(R2UR2U')*3 [12]



Also, I remember that in Spain you showed my a way to do edge 3-cycles in 8 moves but I don't remember and can't figure out how. Can you tell again?

Normal scramble: U F2 U F2 R2 B2 U' R B' L B' U2 F' L B R D2 F
Inverse scramble: F' D2 R' B' L' F U2 B L' B R' U B2 R2 F2 U' F2 U'
(Premove D)
2x2x2: U' (R2) B D
2x2x3: B R2 U' B2 R'
F2l + edges last layer: U' B2 R B R2 U R U' F R' F'
Undo Premove: D

You have got to wonder how that looks on the normal scramble (especially if I could have inserted those 4 corners)
D' F R F' U R' U' R2 B' R' B2 U R B2 U R2 B' D' B' R2 U

And that 8 move edge-3-cycle is (a variation of) U2 B2 D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L'
or B2 D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L' U2 or D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L' U2 B2 (same alg, just move the first move to the end so you have more chance on a nice cancellation)

 

[guusrs]

I will post that 20 move solution later tonight. If anyone knows any short algs that permute 4 corners (without changing the rest of the cube) please let me know. Doing 2 corner-3-cycle-insertions within the time-limit isn't something I can do normally

Hi!

I look forward to see your 20-move start, since I've become quite interested in fewest moves. I'm also trying to find some good ways to end the solves to be able to get sub-30 solutions. A few algs for permuting corners:

2+2:
L'R'U2LR FBU2F'B' U2 [11]
(RUR'U')*3 [12]
(FR'F'R)*3 [12]
and all their variations (U, U', U2 etc)
U F2 U R2 U' F2 L2 D B2 D' L2 U' [12]

5-cycle:
R2B2L2F2 U F2L2B2R2 D [10]
(R2UR2U')*3 [12]



Also, I remember that in Spain you showed my a way to do edge 3-cycles in 8 moves but I don't remember and can't figure out how. Can you tell again?

Normal scramble: U F2 U F2 R2 B2 U' R B' L B' U2 F' L B R D2 F
Inverse scramble: F' D2 R' B' L' F U2 B L' B R' U B2 R2 F2 U' F2 U'
(Premove D)
2x2x2: U' (R2) B D
2x2x3: B R2 U' B2 R'
F2l + edges last layer: U' B2 R B R2 U R U' F R' F'
Undo Premove: D

You have got to wonder how that looks on the normal scramble (especially if I could have inserted those 4 corners)
D' F R F' U R' U' R2 B' R' B2 U R B2 U R2 B' D' B' R2 U

And that 8 move edge-3-cycle is (a variation of) U2 B2 D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L'
or B2 D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L' U2 or D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L' U2 B2 (same alg, just move the first move to the end so you have more chance on a nice cancellation)

Hi Arnaud,

Nice skeleton, I think it can only be solved with a double corner insertion, takes 15 - 20 minutes and resulting in ±32 moves.

 

[AvGalen]

I will post that 20 move solution later tonight. If anyone knows any short algs that permute 4 corners (without changing the rest of the cube) please let me know. Doing 2 corner-3-cycle-insertions within the time-limit isn't something I can do normally

Hi!

I look forward to see your 20-move start, since I've become quite interested in fewest moves. I'm also trying to find some good ways to end the solves to be able to get sub-30 solutions. A few algs for permuting corners:

2+2:
L'R'U2LR FBU2F'B' U2 [11]
(RUR'U')*3 [12]
(FR'F'R)*3 [12]
and all their variations (U, U', U2 etc)
U F2 U R2 U' F2 L2 D B2 D' L2 U' [12]

5-cycle:
R2B2L2F2 U F2L2B2R2 D [10]
(R2UR2U')*3 [12]



Also, I remember that in Spain you showed my a way to do edge 3-cycles in 8 moves but I don't remember and can't figure out how. Can you tell again?

Normal scramble: U F2 U F2 R2 B2 U' R B' L B' U2 F' L B R D2 F
Inverse scramble: F' D2 R' B' L' F U2 B L' B R' U B2 R2 F2 U' F2 U'
(Premove D)
2x2x2: U' (R2) B D
2x2x3: B R2 U' B2 R'
F2l + edges last layer: U' B2 R B R2 U R U' F R' F'
Undo Premove: D

You have got to wonder how that looks on the normal scramble (especially if I could have inserted those 4 corners)
D' F R F' U R' U' R2 B' R' B2 U R B2 U R2 B' D' B' R2 U

And that 8 move edge-3-cycle is (a variation of) U2 B2 D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L'
or B2 D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L' U2 or D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L' U2 B2 (same alg, just move the first move to the end so you have more chance on a nice cancellation)

Hi Arnaud,

Nice skeleton, I think it can only be solved with a double corner insertion, takes 15 - 20 minutes and resulting in ±32 moves.

Thanks Guus/Gus, it reminded me a lot about my PB of 33:
Scramble: D' F' D2 L B U2 L2 F' R U2 L2 D B F' D2 R2 D2 R D L2 U' L2
R2 B F'
Almost solved in 20: R' U F' D2 U2 L2 U' L B' L' D' B D2 B2 D2 B R D'
R' D'
And from that same competition comes my best start ever:
Scramble: D2 U' R D' U2 L' D' R2 B F2 R2 B' F L' D' B2 F2 D' U B2 F' D2 B2 D2 L2, perform U2 R B R D2 L F2 U2 F R B2 R' F' (full F2L was done in 13 moves!)

 

[Jacco]

I actually feel a bit sorry I won fewest moves. I got quite lucky, here is my solution and comment:

Scramble: U F2 U F2 R2 B2 U' R B' L B' U2 F' L B R D2 F

(y'x') U' R U2 R' [make a white-green-orange pair]
F2 [make 2x2x1 block on U and fix white-orange edge]
U R' F R U F' U [finish 12 move double x-cross and make pair on B layer]
L B2 L' [insert that pair]
U B R B R' B2 R B' R' [last pair resulting into easy LL]
D L B L' B' D' [finish LL]

30 moves in total.

 

[AvGalen]

I actually feel a bit sorry I won fewest moves. I got quite lucky, here is my solution and comment:

Scramble: U F2 U F2 R2 B2 U' R B' L B' U2 F' L B R D2 F

(y'x') U' R U2 R' [make a white-green-orange pair]
F2 [make 2x2x1 block on U and fix white-orange edge]
U R' F R U F' U [finish 12 move double x-cross and make pair on B layer]
L B2 L' [insert that pair]
U B R B R' B2 R B' R' [last pair resulting into easy LL]
D L B L' B' D' [finish LL]

30 moves in total.

Getting lucky is not a crime Jacco
Someday I will get a 6 move last layer as well and get a sub 20 solve

 

[mande]

You had a 376 moves solution for the FMC :confused::confused::confused:

Is this result/behaviour supposed to be cool or something?

Shame on him.

I didn't intend it that way...I was merely trying to find out if he really did get a 376 move solution, and if he did, how come it was so long (I think I did find the answer to that in another thread though).

 

[Ton]

You had a 376 moves solution for the FMC :confused::confused::confused:

Is this result/behaviour supposed to be cool or something?

Shame on him.

I didn't intend it that way...I was merely trying to find out if he really did get a 376 move solution, and if he did, how come it was so long (I think I did find the answer to that in another thread though).

Erik was so kind to check the solution, since for me it was not fun -I was busy with the score taking and checking the FM results. Next time I will set a max of 60 moves for FM as limit to accept the score.

 

[AvGalen]

You had a 376 moves solution for the FMC :confused::confused::confused:

Is this result/behaviour supposed to be cool or something?

Shame on him.

I didn't intend it that way...I was merely trying to find out if he really did get a 376 move solution, and if he did, how come it was so long (I think I did find the answer to that in another thread though).

Erik was so kind to check the solution, since for me it was not fun -I was busy with the score taking and checking the FM results. Next time I will set a max of 60 moves for FM as limit to accept the score.

Sorry Ton, but I don't think you can do that:
8d) Competitions may have time limits per round of an event, to make sure that the time schedule can be followed.
Z2) Organisation team may limit the number of events per competitor.
Z4) Organisation team may limit the number of competitors per event (first come first go, or based on qualification times or based on position on WCA world ranking).

Everyone agrees that Kais solve was stupid, but he is punished by being on the bottom of the rankings

 

[hr.mohr]

You had a 376 moves solution for the FMC :confused::confused::confused:

Is this result/behaviour supposed to be cool or something?

Shame on him.

I didn't intend it that way...I was merely trying to find out if he really did get a 376 move solution, and if he did, how come it was so long (I think I did find the answer to that in another thread though).

Erik was so kind to check the solution, since for me it was not fun -I was busy with the score taking and checking the FM results. Next time I will set a max of 60 moves for FM as limit to accept the score.

Sorry Ton, but I don't think you can do that:
8d) Competitions may have time limits per round of an event, to make sure that the time schedule can be followed.
Z2) Organisation team may limit the number of events per competitor.
Z4) Organisation team may limit the number of competitors per event (first come first go, or based on qualification times or based on position on WCA world ranking).

Everyone agrees that Kais solve was stupid, but he is punished by being on the bottom of the rankings

Well you can have a time limit for checking the solution? ;-)
But seriously, doing an insanely long FMC solution may be valid in the letter of the regulations but it sure as hell is not by the spirit of them...

And there is this:

11d) If the WCA regulations are not fully clear or if the incident is not covered by the WCA regulations, then the main judge must make his decision based on fair sportsmanship, after consulting the WCA delegate

 

[KJiptner]

I thought It was a funny thing to do (and a few others also did think that). But after putting my solution into the judges' box I started to feel quite bad about it. I know how much time pressure the judges usually have at a competition and apologize to everybody who didn't think this was amusing. Especially Erik, who was so kind and took like 20 attempts to check wheather it's correct. I won't do it again.

 

[Stefan]

Especially Erik, who was so kind and took like 20 attempts to check wheather it's correct.

How does that work? Did he do a majority vote (like 11 successes vs 10 failures) or did it take him 20 attempts to get it right and he failed the 19 times before? Neither case convinces me that the solution was indeed correct. Oh and when I told you this is a not so nice idea, was that beforehand or afterwards? I don't remember.

 

[Mike Hughey]

Sorry Ton, but I don't think you can do that:
8d) Competitions may have time limits per round of an event, to make sure that the time schedule can be followed.
Z2) Organisation team may limit the number of events per competitor.
Z4) Organisation team may limit the number of competitors per event (first come first go, or based on qualification times or based on position on WCA world ranking).

You have a point. And hr.mohr, I don't think the regulations are unclear at all on this point - these are the only limits allowed - the regulations are quite clear about that. So Rule 11d cannot apply here.

Which also means the US Nationals probably need to remove the following:
"2. Solutions over 50 moves will not be graded and will be considered as DNFs."

Which also means we probably already have our first candidate for an addition to the 2010 rules.

 

[Stefan]

these are the only limits allowed

Just because move limits aren't allowed, doesn't mean they're forbidden.

 

[Mike Hughey]

these are the only limits allowed

Just because move limits aren't allowed, doesn't mean they're forbidden.

I guess you're right. Looking at the text for Article Z:
"The purpose of optional regulations is to give extra possibilities to manage competitions. The organisation team of a competition may decide to apply one or more of the following optional regulations.
The application of optional regulations for a competition, must be approved by WCA Board."

This doesn't state that the specified regulations are the only optional ones allowed (perhaps it implies it, though). If it is allowed to do other optional regulations, then I guess anything would be okay as long as it's approved by the WCA Board.