Genetics / Natural Talent vs Hard Work / Practice

[Dene]

This is all guesswork but I do think high-level speedcubing taps into a very interesting niche of 'intelligence' that isn't really covered by 'move your hands fast' or 'solve this hard problem', and there is something more fundamental going on.

You mean like processing speed?

Ocrap I totes mentioned that way back at the start of this discussion.

 

[Absence]

The community has been evolving over the years. People find new ways to do the same thing, get faster. They get better and better equipment, cube and mind alike.

By continuously trying to break what was previously thought to be impossible is what's so amazing about speedcubing and what keeps me going.

From the very first time I solved a cube to my first sub-10, I've been trying to get better, more efficient, hopefully one day world class.

In the end, it's a culmination of practice, dedication, natural talent, and most importantly fun all put together. This is what makes up a world class speed cuber.

 

[KenBrace]

chess is very unlike cubing in that it is 100% knowledge based and it takes at least 1-2 decades to play at the top level, with huge participation and huge competition. speedsolving is just starting out, people become world class in a few years of hard practice. the knowledge you need in speedsolving is not much, some algs, f2l cases, ability to do some blockbuilding. it comes down to mostly good lookahead and tps, both of which i think most people can develop sufficiently to become world class in their lifetime if they do a good amount of practice.

Chess is different than cubing, yes. But the general talent vs practice ratio is roughly the same I think. It takes a lot of practice to become a GM and it takes a lot of practice to become a sub-10 solver. It also takes natural talent to become a 2700+ rated chess player and it takes natural talent to become a world record contender in speed cubing.

Skip to 2:15...

Bobby Fischer's answer also applies to speed solving in my opinion. Some people are simple more intelligent, have faster reflexes, can learn faster, have a greater ability to concentrate, etc. than others.

I used to do a lot of skateboarding with my brother and even though we practiced evenly I found it difficult to keep up with him in certain areas. I was just somehow unable to keep up with the rate at which he was mastering new tricks down stair sets. I got better the more I practiced but his natural talent gave him an advantage.

On the other hand, when it comes to speed cubing he is unable to keep up with me. The same goes for a friend of mine. They don't lack determination or practice time. There's just something about their physiology that slows them down a little.

This same concept applies to most skills in life. The most important thing is practice but everyone has their physical limit and that limit is different for each person.

 

[PingSkills]

Great discussion. Here are 3 books that I really enjoyed on this topic:

Bounce by Matthew Syed
The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle
Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell

I enjoyed reading these books and would highly recommend them. The basic premise of these books is that you can become World class at anything you want, you just need to practice the right way for 10,000 hours. It's really nice to believe that this is true. However when I really think about that I just can't agree with it. Sure, to become World class might take 10,000 hours of practice but not everyone who trains that much will. Talent certainly plays a role in sport and I believe in cubing. If you go to any kids sporting event and watch for 30 seconds you'll be able to identify which kids are talented (try it). Certain kids are just better and it's not because they have practiced more. To me it follows that for cubing certain people are going to be better, have more "natural talent", and some of those will end up practicing enough to become World class.

 

[RubikZz]

Sorry of this is already said, I just reader online the first page.
There is a theorie that of you train more than 10.000 hours, if it's in sprinting, or playing music, you can be good at it. But you need to have feeling about it. I would never become a good sprinter like Usain Bolt, because I don't have that body. But if you look at Usain Bolt, they say it's the fastest man on earth, not really, he is the greatest at 100, 200 and if he started running 400 meter (he was to lazy and it was harder for his body to practice) he would also be good at it. But from a distance of 800 meters he wouldn't win, because he don't have the body for it, so he is not the fastest man on let's say 1500 meter. He is also been born on the right place on the right time, Jamaica is an athletic island. I'm living in the Netherlands, we have good swimmers and good ice skaters, (also athletics) maybe there are also good swimmers and ice skaters on Jamaica, but because it isn't a sport there they would never be discovered because they started track and field or stuck at it and just started a "normal" life, working get children (what's normal). If Usain Bolt was born on an different place in the world, where he can't started sprinting we would never heard of him, maybe in a different sport, but I don't think so. I think soccer players like Ronaldo and Arjen Robben would also be great sprinters, but they start playing soccer. How many great cubers are there in the world that never started cubing, because they weren't on the right place on the right moment? Or they givin up? Churandy Martina, a Dutch sprinter (100 and 200 meter) from Curaçao started at the same time as Usain Bolt and is still in the top of the world. At his fourth Olympics in Rio he said he saw many sprinters come and go, his thoughts about it is because a lot of them givin up, because it's hard working to stay in the top and it cost a lot of money. We now have Dafne Schippers (just god bronze on the 100 meter and hopefully she wins at the 200 meter in a few days) but she is the first great Dutch female sprinter in the Netherlands after Fanny Blankers-Koen. Because she started sprinting, like I said earlier, if she started cicling, soccer, swimming, or ice-skating, we probably would never hear of her Maybe she is also good at a sport that we don't play in the Netherlands, but because she is born here she does sprinting, so she can't change or set new world records at a whole different sport like Usain Bolt chances the track and field sport.
Back about cubing, I think it has to be a sort of genetics, and practice enough and being on the right place at the right moment. I'm just restarted after 3 years, and have finally become sub 20 avg. If I look at video's now I'm just understand everything better, one because my English is better, but two because, if I look back, I didn't understand the logic behind it, and still I think so. I know people with a very low IQ, I believe I can learn them to solve a Rubik's Cube, but they would never get as fast as the top, even if they train more than that 10.000 hours. On a school test of me my spatial awareness (?) was like 3/4 out of 10. I think that's doesn't help cubing much. I'm never be intuitive even with F2L, that doens't help speedcubing also. A boy I learned cubing was a fast learner, he saw the logic behind it directly. Sadly he didn't want to solve it as fast as he can. He just liked it to solve it in front of the tv. But I still think he would be a fast cuber. And what Feliks always says people on school have the most practice time, if you become older you have to study, going to work, maybe get children. So my conclusion is, genetic, practise, and being on the right place on the right moment. What if Max Park and Feliks Zemdegs started at the same time with the cubing community and record, competition when Feliks started. I think it is possible it would be a two battle like Usain Bolt and Justin Gatlin, but than a bit friendlier. Or what if Feliks just started last year? Probably the world records where been very low so he never could get the 100 world records, probably not even 20/30. But there both another discussion.

 

[MoyuDayanLover3]

I don't think so. You can practise sprinting as much as you like, you'll never outrun Usain Bolt unless you have the genetics. Feliks has a brain that processes this particular ability better than most (taking in patterns, processing combinations, working out a solution, and sending that information to the fingers). That, combined with a lot of practise, made him by far better than anyone else. To match him would take the combination of natural ability with an enormous amount of practise.

Uh, no, sprinting is different from cubing. If I had all the free time in the world, and I was a devout cuber, I could practice 5+ hours a day, learn full OLL and PLL, learn all the F2L algorithms and how to insert them from all different angles, learn ZBLL, WV, COLL, BLE, VLS, CLS, and other algorithm sets, spend a lot of time drilling all of these algorithms, become color neutral, learn tips from faster cubers, watch example solves from faster cubers, train my look ahead to be near perfect, learn how to do an X-Cross, practice finding pairs in inspection, keep practicing, etc., and in a few years time, I'd be faster than Feliks!

Great discussion. Here are 3 books that I really enjoyed on this topic:

Bounce by Matthew Syed
The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle
Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell

I enjoyed reading these books and would highly recommend them. The basic premise of these books is that you can become World class at anything you want, you just need to practice the right way for 10,000 hours. It's really nice to believe that this is true. However when I really think about that I just can't agree with it. Sure, to become World class might take 10,000 hours of practice but not everyone who trains that much will. Talent certainly plays a role in sport and I believe in cubing. If you go to any kids sporting event and watch for 30 seconds you'll be able to identify which kids are talented (try it). Certain kids are just better and it's not because they have practiced more. To me it follows that for cubing certain people are going to be better, have more "natural talent", and some of those will end up practicing enough to become World class.

Talent makes you get better more easily at first, but in the long run, it can be a bad thing. This is because you start thinking, 'Oh, I'm so talented at this, I don't need to work hard.' So you start slacking off, practicing less, learning less new techniques, and by the time you realize what's happening, it's too late, cause your so used to having it easy that you can't get into the habit of being a hard worker.

Well then it becomes more of a question of "What is world class?"

Top100?
Top10?
Top 1%?
Top 0.1%?
Something else?

For just 3x3, I'd say Sub-8 or Sub-7.5.

 

[turtwig]

Uh, no, sprinting is different from cubing. If I had all the free time in the world, and I was a devout cuber, I could practice 5+ hours a day, learn full OLL and PLL, learn all the F2L algorithms and how to insert them from all different angles, learn ZBLL, WV, COLL, BLE, VLS, CLS, and other algorithm sets, spend a lot of time drilling all of these algorithms, become color neutral, learn tips from faster cubers, watch example solves from faster cubers, train my look ahead to be near perfect, learn how to do an X-Cross, practice finding pairs in inspection, keep practicing, etc., and in a few years time, I'd be faster than Feliks!

Most people could devote all their time to practicing and would probably reach world class, but the point is that some people will have a much easier time. If we gathered 100 people that have never seen a cube, locked them in a room for a year, and told them to learn how to speedsolve and practice all day, chances are, at the end of the year, some of the people would be better, and some would be worse, even if they practiced the exact same amount, due to differences in how they were raised, knowledge of other subjects, genetics, IQ, etc.

Really the only difference between cubing and sprinting or other professional sports is that cubing is not as big, so almost no one practices for a living. If cubing were as big as sprinting and there was a lot of money to be made, there would probably be a small group of geniuses that cube all the time and 'normal' people would find it very hard to compete with them.

Talent makes you get better more easily at first, but in the long run, it can be a bad thing. This is because you start thinking, 'Oh, I'm so talented at this, I don't need to work hard.' So you start slacking off, practicing less, learning less new techniques, and by the time you realize what's happening, it's too late, cause your so used to having it easy that you can't get into the habit of being a hard worker.

That's only if you're a lazy person. Many people are diligent enough to take advantage of their talents (example: basically anyone that's world class in anything).

 

[tx789]

Anyone can be world class but not every one can't put them selves through the practise required or believe they can do it.
Lack of believe is a big factor. People who believe they are geneticly inferior won't do as well, they got into it thinking "I can't be world class" , then there is the factor of motivation. Some people don't have motivation to get better or are content with where they are. Some people don't have enough of an interest to get that far.

 

[MoyuDayanLover3]

Most people could devote all their time to practicing and would probably reach world class, but the point is that some people will have a much easier time. If we gathered 100 people that have never seen a cube, locked them in a room for a year, and told them to learn how to speedsolve and practice all day, chances are, at the end of the year, some of the people would be better, and some would be worse, even if they practiced the exact same amount, due to differences in how they were raised, knowledge of other subjects, genetics, IQ, etc.

Really the only difference between cubing and sprinting or other professional sports is that cubing is not as big, so almost no one practices for a living. If cubing were as big as sprinting and there was a lot of money to be made, there would probably be a small group of geniuses that cube all the time and 'normal' people would find it very hard to compete with them.



That's only if you're a lazy person. Many people are diligent enough to take advantage of their talents (example: basically anyone that's world class in anything).

I'm not denying that talent can make it easier if used correctly, my argument is that anyone can be faster than Feliks, even if it takes them longer than it took him.

 

[Gomorrite]

Uh, no, sprinting is different from cubing. If I had all the free time in the world, and I was a devout cuber, I could practice 5+ hours a day, learn full OLL and PLL, learn all the F2L algorithms and how to insert them from all different angles, learn ZBLL, WV, COLL, BLE, VLS, CLS, and other algorithm sets, spend a lot of time drilling all of these algorithms, become color neutral, learn tips from faster cubers, watch example solves from faster cubers, train my look ahead to be near perfect, learn how to do an X-Cross, practice finding pairs in inspection, keep practicing, etc., and in a few years time, I'd be faster than Feliks!

Another outcome of that: by the time you are finally approaching Feliks' times, you are already 70 and you get arthritis. Game over.

 

[MoyuDayanLover3]

Another outcome of that: by the time you are finally approaching Feliks' times, you are already 70 and you get arthritis. Game over.

A depressing thought. And no, if you spend that much time on cubing, you could be seventeen and faster than Feliks, not seventy.