Moderation in everything, including moderation

[Kenneth]

Another thing that I see is people getting upset for bumping threads. As much as I have seen it, and as much as I have expressed my opinion on it, people don't seem to understand. I see nothing wrong with bumping an old thread, pretty much ever. Some people do bump really old threads with nothing much to say, but I don't see that any differently than replying to a recent thread with nothing much to say.

100% agree

I would like to ask: what you guys suggest to fix this? Mass emails? Warnings for these posters? Reviewing new accounts? Suspensions?

When creating a new account the user gest a tread of pages having important rules described (short terms and large text that is easy to read) and the question "do you agree to this?" and two buttons, "yes" and "no", as long as you click "yes" the registration continues to the end, else it will not be compleated. That way the user have to read the rules to get an account.

Normally you get a sheet with a mass of text (I dont remember how it was here but normally) that you don't have the enregy to read so you just click "agree" and have not a clue what the agreement was about.

 

[JBCM627]

I agree with you completely. But I must admit I'm a little afraid I might be reprimanded for responding to this post.

Please don't bump a 13 minute old thread unless you have new insight to provide.

Was that meant as a joke or were you just completely ignoring what the TS said?

Poe's Law? Of course it was a Joke :rolleyes:

When someone asks a "dumb" question, it is best to give some guidance on where to find the answer and/or give them the answer. It seems people instead say "use the search function". Another thing that I see is people getting upset for bumping threads. As much as I have seen it, and as much as I have expressed my opinion on it, people don't seem to understand. I see nothing wrong with bumping an old thread, pretty much ever. Some people do bump really old threads with nothing much to say, but I don't see that any differently than replying to a recent thread with nothing much to say.

I would like to ask: what you guys suggest to fix this? Mass emails? Warnings for these posters? Reviewing new accounts? Suspensions?

I would agree with this. I don't see a problem with bumping old threads either, or new threads for new people to discuss older ideas. There are cases when I'd consider it a problem, and people will point this out, but usually just to make a poorer post than the initial bumper. At least use constructive criticism.

Warnings may be a good idea.

I still think the best solution would be to make a handful of stickies, one explaining what people should and shouldn't do ... and one in each section with a basic FAQ

Do we not already have this?

 

[jcuber]

We need to find a way so that people have to read the rules for all subforums, asking questions, ect. Perhaps a multiple choice quiz on basic knowledge that after reading the rules (during registration), you would have to know? If you didn't pass, you wouldn't be allowed to make a profile. It would definitely cut down on pointless posts/threads.

 

[brunson]

I don't want this to turn into another "how do we get the newbies to do it right" thread, we've already had a couple and not much useful came out of them. I'm hereby declaring that discussion of correcting newbie behavior in this thread off topic, and it's my topic so I can do that, so if that's what you what to discuss, then go start your own topic that I can ignore and stop hijacking mine.

The fact is, berating the newbies in the forum is not working, so stop it. If someone is doing something you don't like, then skip over their post and ignore them. Don't miss my core point, and I'll write it big so you can't miss it:

If you are not a moderator it is not your place to reprimand anyone!!!


If you think what they've done is bad, then report the post.

I don't care about newbie behavior, they're usually just stupid, not rude, and no matter what, there are always going to be newbies and they're generally going to be stupid for a while. It's far more frustrating to me to see new topic with nine replies, click on the post and see that eight of the replies are the netiquette police ranting at the OP and each other. It makes the forum unpleasant to read and even more so to participate in.

Here's the bottom line as far as I'm concerned: Right here in this thread you have a posting directly from one of the top cubers in the world and he says he doesn't like posting here because of the rudeness. I'd like to be able to suggest that everyone simply stop being rude, but since rudeness is subjective and clearly from the postings in this thread many of the people being rude think they're justified, then we need some way of changing the behavior.

I think the simplest solution is this: If the world "moderator" does not appear in the space below your nickname, do not moderate. Either report the post, or ignore it.

I'll let everyone in on a secret that some people here don't seem to know:

Spoiler

You don't have to take part in every single thread that is started. If you don't like the question, don't reply. It takes a *lot* less time.

 

[brunson]

I agree with you completely. But I must admit I'm a little afraid I might be reprimanded for responding to this post.

Please don't bump a 13 minute old thread unless you have new insight to provide.

P.S. This was funny.

And, yes, I just double posted. It's my thread, I started it, if you don't like it, don't read it. Or use the report button and let the moderators decide if it's inappropriate.

 

[qqwref]

And, yes, I just double posted. It's my thread, I started it, if you don't like it, don't read it. Or use the report button and let the moderators decide if it's inappropriate.

Okay, I did. I do think it's kind of weird that you think you own the topic or something just because you created it, though. You don't own the forum or decide the rules, so why should you decide what's acceptable within this topic? It's for the moderators to decide.

 

[MTGjumper]

Okay, I did. I do think it's kind of weird that you think you own the topic or something just because you created it, though. You don't own the forum or decide the rules, so why should you decide what's acceptable within this topic? It's for the moderators to decide.

I think he might have been being a bit tongue-in-cheek there, considering the subject matter of the thread.

Also, my opinion on the matter, even though I am essentially reiterating what other people have said: people shouldn't "backseat moderate". It's only happened more recently, but it's created quite a negative atmosphere. If a thread is discussing an issue that has been raised many times, don't reply. Allow a moderator to respond instead, notifying the person about the search function and possibly locking that thread. I'm a member of a number of forums where repeated backseat moderation results in bans.

This combined with an increase in stickys informing newbies of what to do should help ease the problem.

 

[kickinwing2112]

I for one have started a couple of threads and got a ton of answers that told me to use the search function. So I did. And I got a ton of threads that were no help to me and completely irrelevant. I don't post much in fear of people just rejecting my posts.

 

[Lord Voldemort]

I would like to ask: what you guys suggest to fix this? Mass emails? Warnings for these posters? Reviewing new accounts? Suspensions?

I wouldn't mind seeing this stickied on the beginner's and speedcubing forums.
Really though, I think a 3 strikes kind of thing wouldn't be bad. Maybe a warning (or two) the first time people make an obvious thread/ revive for no reason, and then a suspension? I think after the first warning, most people will stop.

Also, when I was registering, I noticed "How many sides are on a Rubik's Cube". We could do that, except maybe have a hidden word in the rules so that people are forced to read them. Personally I don't think it takes any interest in speedsolving to know how many sides are on a cube.

I also like Kenneth's idea (top of the page), though it's kind of the same.

 

[jcuber]

We need to find a way so that people have to read the rules for all subforums, asking questions, ect. Perhaps a multiple choice quiz on basic knowledge that after reading the rules (during registration), you would have to know? If you didn't pass, you wouldn't be allowed to make a profile. It would definitely cut down on pointless posts/threads.

The reason I said this is because with kenneth's Idea, all you would have to do is keep clicking yes to every question, just like all of the "I agree" things you need to click to register for anything. The only difference it would make is the amount of time the new members would have to click. That is why I suggested a mini-quiz, to ensure that they actually did read the rules.

Edit: Also, changing/creating new stickies won't do a thing. I didn't read one of them (except in the video section to learn how to embed) until after I had a profile here for over a month. Something needs to be done in the registration process, hence the quiz.

 

[brunson]

Notice how when people backseat moderate (I like the phrase, MTG) and continue to post off topic in this thread, I ignore them. Maybe if everyone does, they'll go away.

 

[qqwref]

I'm a member of a number of forums where repeated backseat moderation results in bans.

Well duh. It's not needed if the moderators actually know how to use the ban feature.

Edit: Also, changing/creating new stickies won't do a thing. I didn't read one of them (except in the video section to learn how to embed) until after I had a profile here for over a month. Something needs to be done in the registration process, hence the quiz.

On most forums, you're actually *expected* to read the stickies. If you don't, it's your fault only if you break the rules the stickies tell you about.

 

[Lucas Garron]

Could we put it in big letters everywhere that if you are new and have a question, you should post in the BEGINNER'S FORUM?

Too many people have the audacity to ask for silly help in the speedsolving sub-forum after one week of cubing.
I can tolerate lots of silly stuff in the beginner's forum, because I can ignore it (unless I want some entertainment).

 

[blah]

Could we put it in big letters everywhere that if you are new and have a question, you should post in the BEGINNER'S FORUM?

Too many people have the audacity to ask for silly help in the speedsolving sub-forum after one week of cubing.
I can tolerate lots of silly stuff in the beginner's forum, because I can ignore it (unless I want some entertainment).

Seconded.

Silly posts in the beginner's section should be tolerated, because it is a beginner's subforum after all. I remember that in some forums I've been to, there are different volunteers scheduled to answer every single silly question in the beginners forum just to get the newbies started, and also to *politely* request them to use the search function in the future.

Just don't abuse the speedsolving subforum.

 

[pjk]

I appreciate your suggestions. I have put up a global announcement; we will see how it performs.

Keep in mind that all new members receive a PM with information regarding posting/replying, etc.

We will begin sending warnings to people who don't follow these simply "rules".

 

[AvGalen]

1
Only moderators can moderate. All other people can only write text that looks like a moderation that suggest what others should do!

Moderators are like judges. They have the power and justification to guide and punish people for denying "the rules" (both official and socially accepted). Every person should be able to help (and sometimes criticise) others that don't obey "the rules". Just as we don't want a police state, we don't want a "Dan-will-smack-you-with-the-banhammer-forum". And like real life you can't just punch people in the face and expect them to behave next time

2
Answering peoples "how do I get faster question" with "use the search" is the worst thing you can do. It has been done so many times now that if you search for "how do i get faster" you only get topics that tell you to use the search. By being unhelpfull a vicious cycle has been created. In order to break that cycle i propose you post something like "this question has been asked many times before. If you use the awesome search function on this forum like this (insert good keywords) you would have found this topics (insert a couple of the best results)

3
PJK has been clear on this: Bumping old threads is allowed just as much as posting in new threads. That also means posting stupid/useless things in old threads is not ok. An old thread is slightly preferred over a new similar thread, but opening new threads on existing topics is also allowed if you prefer to do that.

4
Forcing people to read and understand and behave according to "the rules" is almost impossible without creating a very restricted and repressive forum. People sometimes make mistakes, act stupid and annoy others. I just hope everyone here chooses to help them behave better instead of focussing on punishment for their faults. Rewarding good behavior simply works better than punishing bad behavior.

 

[brunson]

AvG,

Thank you for your considered and thoughtful reply, I agree with you on all four points.

Just for clarification on the first, I use the term "moderation" for what I'm bristling at because it's less antagonistic than "rudeness" and "arrogance". I'd like to see an end (or at least a huge reduction) of the bickering on the forums and the useless "use the search", "don't bump old posts", etc. comments from non moderators. The only way that's going to change is if the real moderators back up the initiative and agree that it is inappropriate behavior with consequences for repeated violations.

As far as changing newbie behavior, I'm glad there are others worldly enough to understand that you'll never be able to eradicate it in an open forum while keeping it open. As long as you have new members coming in you'll always have newbie behavior. I agree it needs to be addressed, but repeated reprimands from non-moderators is clearly not working and only leads to useless posts cluttering up the threads. A quiet aside in PM is more appropriate for a non-moderator response on a first offense, use of the report button for repeated violations. And I think the greatest tool we have to deal with unacceptable behavior as a group is ignoring it.

Anyway, I think I've said all I can on the subject, it's up to the administration of the forum to make it a policy and give it teeth. Things will either change or I'll find someplace else to interact with fellow cubers.

 

[qqwref]

And I think the greatest tool we have to deal with unacceptable behavior as a group is ignoring it.

I don't really agree with this; if you don't let someone know something they are doing is inappropriate or wrong, what would stop them from doing it? For example, users will only start putting in the effort to use good grammar and spelling if they know they have to. That is an example of a problem that cannot be solved just by ignoring it.

 

[brunson]

Fine, just please do it in PM unless you're a forum moderator. Doing it otherwise is off topic and currently seems to lead incessant bickering.

 

[Stefan]

If you think what they've done is bad, then report the post.

You suggested that several times, but I think it's actually wrong. Please click the report button and read "This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts". I wanted to use it several times for annoying people, but each time had to decide the above criterion just didn't apply. It rarely ever does.

I would like to ask: what you guys suggest to fix this?

Provide a quick way to tell people privately. Like the report button, but sending a private message with a link to the concerned post included automatically. And not ending up in my "sent messages". Right now I'd have to do it all by hand so I rarely do it.

I appreciate your suggestions. I have put up a global announcement; we will see how it performs.

Can you make the font red so it's more noticeable?

I propose you post something like "this question has been asked many times before. If you use the awesome search function on this forum like this (insert good keywords) you would have found this topics (insert a couple of the best results)

Very much agree. Just saying "use search" is terrible. I myself make sure I can actually find the answer myself and then link people to searches, e.g., google urls including the search terms.