newtonbase
Premium Member
I keep going back to it too. It's so reliable and is nice and clicky for blind.
Older cubers discussions
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muchacho
Veteran
My improvement was slowing down, so first I stopped doing OH and now that I got my 2x2 goal I'll practice only 3x3 (plus weekly comps), maybe you could try to focus on one puzzle for a few weeks.
Maybe I can go to sub-20 just by doing solves, but then I predict a lot of hard and boring work for me to continue improving.
Maybe I can go to sub-20 just by doing solves, but then I predict a lot of hard and boring work for me to continue improving.
h2f
Premium Member
Agree
. I use it in 3bld due to nice Mslice moves. But v2 in 3bld isnt bad - it's stable and only Mslice is a little harder than in v1.
newtonbase
Premium Member
My v2 is stickerless but I prefer stickers for 3BLD as they feel a little better. I do prefer a mix for multi as I can tell them apart so maybe I'll use the v2 for that.Agree
h2f
Premium Member
I'm after first full attempt of 6bld. I finished after 1:30 min solving all targets. I knew I messed but I had to check if I remember all targets (I did) and how I feel the slices when I'm blindfolded. I think I'll repeat it soon. Video (short) will come soon.
h2f
Premium Member
I'm gonna make it in last 4bld style. 30 minutes execution is far too long.
Jason Green
Veteran
We talked a while back about Caleb Miller's f2l videos. This one is a little more my speed, just shows the algs for every case and sample solve. I think Caleb's is more educational though, and gives more options. It's really too bad they don't have every case from every angle on algdb.
I guess I'm the type of person who just wants the answers first, and then understand it later which I know I'm weird compared to a lot of you like that. Maybe it's lazy, it just feels more enjoyable to learn like that for me.
I guess I'm the type of person who just wants the answers first, and then understand it later which I know I'm weird compared to a lot of you like that. Maybe it's lazy, it just feels more enjoyable to learn like that for me.
mark49152
Premium Member
@Jason Green, nothing wrong with that approach if it works for you. Personally I think rotationless F2L is overrated though. Some of those solutions add several moves and make lookahead more difficult, just to avoid a rotation that wouldn't be awkward anyway.
Have you seen Viktor Danilov's guides? They are also good.
Have you seen Viktor Danilov's guides? They are also good.
Jason Green
Veteran
No I haven't I might check them out. I agree I don't think the goal would be no rotations ever, but I definitely would like to know some better algs for some things I do.
mark49152
Premium Member
https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/video-expert-f2l-russian-by-viktor-danilov.43416/
There were some really interesting discussions a few years back about what was important for good F2L and Rowan Kinneavy (@Escher) posted some great stuff. I can't find it now, but the gist of his and other posts was that lookahead goes hand in hand with things like selecting the right pairs to minimise rotations, preserving and predicting pairs, filling back slots first to keep more pieces visible, etc. It influenced me to see F2L as more of a holistic thing, rather than four separate steps... but your mileage may vary
.
JohnnyReggae
Veteran
I agree. While rotation-less F2L would be great, I don't think it's totally practical. However it is good to know how to insert from all angles. I know I rotate way to much when solving, sometimes 5 or 6 times which can adversely affect times. When I do have a solve where I don't rotate at all I'm quite surprised. I suppose if I was using say ZZ then rotations would be a thing of the past and I have started looking at ZZ, although my times with ZZ are pretty rubbish to say the least. I need to spend more time that I don't really have ATM.
Thanks for the video link, I will definitely be checking it out.
Selkie
Premium Member
@Logiqx Wow definitely a full compliment of oldies at Guildford! 
@Shaky Hands Aweome single mate, thats how to smask it, over a second off! Lovely
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Some good dialogue on F2L. Here is my 2 cents for what its worth. I learned intuitively originally using Badmephistos videos. Later I gradually replaced some unoptimised cases with algorithms.
I think the end result outweighs algorithm first method, at least for me and I suspect for those with a lower turn speed. My reasoning is for a number of reasons but the main one is that nearly all the algs assume you are working on the last of 4 slots and that you are unable to use the other three. There are so many tricks you can adopt and shortcuts you can take if you are for instance solving BR and FR is still free. I believe look ahead flows better and you can understand the pieces move better if you know intuitively.
I did however say outweigh and not categorical and my reason for this is personal experience. I still rotate far too much and I still go back to intuitive for cases where I have learned the alg and it has not stuck. If you opt for intuitive based then I recommend keep self critiquing your own solves on video and make note of the cases where you are using too many rotations and definitely the ones where you see yourself do a y2.
Bottom line is intuitive becomes alg driven in the end even if it is by repeating the same intuitive cases becomes algs by definition. Some alg dbs use a lot of r/r' R2/R2' to save on rotations and I do find I cannot look ahead through the execution of these very well. Sometimes a well timed d or d' can do just as good a trick. You would be surprised what R'FRF' can do to a bad case so experiment with it. An example of this the last pair on the second solve (12.38) of my 12.77 ao5. I rotated twice. I know that R'FRF' would have left a rotationless case but I did not do it in practice on that solve.
I have realised I have got very stagnant with algorithms to be fair in the last couple of years. Yesterday I learned a new Ra and a new Nb to drill for a few weeks to see if they can replace the ones I use and I am looking to optimise a number of F2L cases, especially for my nemesis ... BL slot!!
@Shaky Hands Aweome single mate, thats how to smask it, over a second off! Lovely
-------
Some good dialogue on F2L. Here is my 2 cents for what its worth. I learned intuitively originally using Badmephistos videos. Later I gradually replaced some unoptimised cases with algorithms.
I think the end result outweighs algorithm first method, at least for me and I suspect for those with a lower turn speed. My reasoning is for a number of reasons but the main one is that nearly all the algs assume you are working on the last of 4 slots and that you are unable to use the other three. There are so many tricks you can adopt and shortcuts you can take if you are for instance solving BR and FR is still free. I believe look ahead flows better and you can understand the pieces move better if you know intuitively.
I did however say outweigh and not categorical and my reason for this is personal experience. I still rotate far too much and I still go back to intuitive for cases where I have learned the alg and it has not stuck. If you opt for intuitive based then I recommend keep self critiquing your own solves on video and make note of the cases where you are using too many rotations and definitely the ones where you see yourself do a y2.
Bottom line is intuitive becomes alg driven in the end even if it is by repeating the same intuitive cases becomes algs by definition. Some alg dbs use a lot of r/r' R2/R2' to save on rotations and I do find I cannot look ahead through the execution of these very well. Sometimes a well timed d or d' can do just as good a trick. You would be surprised what R'FRF' can do to a bad case so experiment with it. An example of this the last pair on the second solve (12.38) of my 12.77 ao5. I rotated twice. I know that R'FRF' would have left a rotationless case but I did not do it in practice on that solve.
I have realised I have got very stagnant with algorithms to be fair in the last couple of years. Yesterday I learned a new Ra and a new Nb to drill for a few weeks to see if they can replace the ones I use and I am looking to optimise a number of F2L cases, especially for my nemesis ... BL slot!!
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mark49152
Premium Member
I agree with @Selkie and let me give an example.
Take the case R U2 R' U' R U R' (that's the solve, invert for setup). Now suppose the target slot is actually at BL, so do a Dw2 after setup, and also suppose the FR slot is open (unsolved so available to mess up). Now you could do a U2 and mirror the solution above, but I find it faster to do R U2 R' U L U L'. So use the open FR to prepare the pair, then align and insert to BL instead.
It's a whole load easier to see such adapted solutions if you are working intuitively. That's not to say you can't learn it as an algorithm first, then study how it works so you can use it and adapt it intuitively in future.
Another example. Same case but target slot at FL, so do Dw' after setup. FR is open. The edge is now bad so it means either a fancy rotationless solution, or a rotation. Since FR is open, we can set it up the same way, R U2 R', and then with a y' rotation it's already setup to insert. IMHO, F2L rotations aren't as bad when they are in the middle of a pair solution (as opposed to between pairs) because you know it's coming and develop muscle memory for it. In the above example I'm starting that y' before I even finish the R U2 R'.
Take the case R U2 R' U' R U R' (that's the solve, invert for setup). Now suppose the target slot is actually at BL, so do a Dw2 after setup, and also suppose the FR slot is open (unsolved so available to mess up). Now you could do a U2 and mirror the solution above, but I find it faster to do R U2 R' U L U L'. So use the open FR to prepare the pair, then align and insert to BL instead.
It's a whole load easier to see such adapted solutions if you are working intuitively. That's not to say you can't learn it as an algorithm first, then study how it works so you can use it and adapt it intuitively in future.
Another example. Same case but target slot at FL, so do Dw' after setup. FR is open. The edge is now bad so it means either a fancy rotationless solution, or a rotation. Since FR is open, we can set it up the same way, R U2 R', and then with a y' rotation it's already setup to insert. IMHO, F2L rotations aren't as bad when they are in the middle of a pair solution (as opposed to between pairs) because you know it's coming and develop muscle memory for it. In the above example I'm starting that y' before I even finish the R U2 R'.
h2f
Premium Member
I agree with you both. First I learnt all algs but in the next steps I've started some intuitive cases. Using empty slots is very important to prepare easy slots. Sometimes intuitive solutions are strange in the first few but exploring them makes solving nicer. For example I like the insert r U r' U' r' F r F' and I knew it doesne change EO is fast and I'm comfortable with it. So I can drill it finding mirror, inverse etc. And it stays in my mind so deep that I dont think about it during solve.
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Shaky Hands
Premium Member
I should probably learn this one, since I solve it with U' R U' R' U2 R U2 R' U R U' R' and could save myself a stack of moves.
mark49152
Premium Member
Great example of why it's good to look them up as algs rather than rely on always figuring it out intuitively - because if we rely on intuition only we will always miss some cool solutions.
To summarise my position in the great algs versus intuition debate: (1) look up algs for F2L cases, and (2) figure out how they work so they become intuitive.
@h2f: I don't know that insert, but can't get what you wrote to work.
h2f
Premium Member
Becasue I wrote it wrong. I messed F with R in the second part of the insert: it should be r U r' U' r' F r F'. I'll edit the previous post. Durign execution I add x rotation so it goes like I meant: r U r' U' x r' U r U' x'
alg.cubing.net
mark49152
Premium Member
Got it. My solution to that case (mirrored to FR) is R U' R' U' R U' R' / U R U R'. Which at the slash can be rotated or mirrored to other slots.
JohnnyReggae
Veteran
@Selkie - I agree with the approach of going with intuitive first, which is what I did, and then looked up some algs for a few cases. The only problem with that is the number of rotations that happen, for me anyway at least. The problem with learning algs for F2L is that in the moment I don't remember them and go back to my intuitive method, and I waste some time trying to think of the alg again.
