Older cubers discussions

[JanW]

Thanks all for the very helpful replies!

I had a look at that badmephisto sheet. Most cases seem to have some distinct qualities that make them easy to uniquely identify, but recognition of G perms indeed seems a bit awkward. Also looks like they are easy to confuse with R perms. From what I see both R and G perms have headlights and one pair. Difference is that in the R perm one corner is part of both the headlights and the pair. In other words, headlights towards me, if the pair is also towards me on either side, it's R perm. Which side the pair is on determines which R perm. If the pair is in any other position relative to headlights, it's G perm. Am I on the right track here?

 

[h2f]

Every Gperm has headlights and a bar not connected with heads. In R perms bar and headlights are connected. The other thing is that: Gb and Gd has heads with opposite colors and bar and heads are on opposite side. Ga and Gc has them made of adjacent color and bar and heads are on adjacent sides but not connected. The other thing wit Ga and Gc is that on the opposite side of the bar there's same sticker.

 

[Shaky Hands]

From memory, I learned PLL in this order:

Aa, Ua, Ub, H, Z, E, T, F, Jb, Ja, Y, Ab, Ra, Rb, V, Ga, Gb, Gc, Gd, Na, Nb.

If I did it again, I'd probably learn Y before E as I think it's an easier alg for 2-look PLL. Also because it comes up more often and it's useful for BLD. N-perms can be done by using the J-perms with setup moves before and after, so weren't as difficult as I was expecting.

For those who were wondering about probability, all are 1 in 18 except E/H/Z (1 in 36 each) and Na/Nb (1 in 72 each).

I still need to improve my A-perms and U-perms to better algs. Some day.

 

[mafergut]

Thanks all for the very helpful replies!

I had a look at that badmephisto sheet. Most cases seem to have some distinct qualities that make them easy to uniquely identify, but recognition of G perms indeed seems a bit awkward. Also looks like they are easy to confuse with R perms. From what I see both R and G perms have headlights and one pair. Difference is that in the R perm one corner is part of both the headlights and the pair. In other words, headlights towards me, if the pair is also towards me on either side, it's R perm. Which side the pair is on determines which R perm. If the pair is in any other position relative to headlights, it's G perm. Am I on the right track here?

Correct! G-perms have headlights and a non-adjacent 2-bar. You put the headlight on the left and the 2-bar can be either at front right, back right, right front or right back. The 1st two cases are front/back mirrors of each other and the other two are inverses of those. I learned them all at the same time with these guidelines.

For the cases with the bar on right I got the nmenonic of getting the corner of the bar from top to bottom, hence if the bar is on right front I start R U R' and if the bar is on right back I start R' U' R and from there the rest of the alg comes from muscle memory but when I was learning them I also took note of the fact that after the R U R' y R2 there was a 2x1 block on the right of U that reminded me of which direction to do the first Uw, which is, bring the corner that is not in the block towards the corner in the block, hence for the 1st case it's Uw. For the 2nd pair of Gs, with bar on front or back right I just thought of starting in the direction from bar to headlights, so, for bar on front, after R2 it goes Uw. Hope it helps.

Of course, Chris Olson would tell you that there are faster G-perms out there but I still use those algs.

 

[mark49152]

Am I on the right track here?

Yes, and @h2f nailed it, but I would add that recognition angle helps. For my algs, the headlights are always on the left. Then the G perms are the cases with a bar at front right, back right, and on the right hand side towards the front or back. Because my algs are mirrors and inverses, there are patterns that correspond to these cases - front right and back right have a similar sequence but are mirrored, and the side cases are the inverses of those sequences but also mirrored. I recall the algs by association of their starting move patterns with the case patterns.

 

[mafergut]

Yes, and @h2f nailed it, but I would add that recognition angle helps. For my algs, the headlights are always on the left. Then the G perms are the cases with a bar at front right, back right, and on the right hand side towards the front or back. Because my algs are mirrors and inverses, there are patterns that correspond to these cases - front right and back right have a similar sequence but are mirrored, and the side cases are the inverses of those sequences but also mirrored. I recall the algs by association of their starting move patterns with the case patterns.

It looks like we used the same techniques to remember those pesky G-perms!

Also @Shaky Hands: The probabilities of the different permutations can be intuitively inferred from the rotational symmetry so, all the ones that look different if rotated a U, U2, U' have 4 cases and hence 4 times the chance, like T, J, V, A, U... the ones that look the same with a U2, like E or Z have just 2 times the chance and the ones that look exactly the same in the 4 rotations have just 1 time the chance (which is 1/72, as you very well point out). So right now I'm confused because, by this rule, I would say H-perm would be just 1/72 and not 1/36 but I must be wrong because 16*4 = 64 so there must be 3 others with 2 chances and 2 with just 1 to add up to 72 ... but then again, maybe not, because there's also the solved case, which is also 1/72... or is it?

 

[mark49152]

It looks like we used the same techniques to remember those pesky G-perms!

Yes you ninja'ed me there .

And I think you are correct that H perm is 1/72.

 

[JanW]

Great tips everyone!

I did try out some Old Pochmann about 6 months ago and learned the Y perm then. I've forgotten it by now, but it should be easier to relearn, so I'll add that pretty soon. I also at one point used one of the J perms for parity, but this was at a different angle. I'll have to consider if I use the same algorithm I used back then, or if I learn it at a new angle.

Overall, it seems some AUF moves are required to recognize these, at least at first. Or I need to turn the cube to look at back faces as well. Is it even technically possible to identify all cases by looking at only 2 faces? The U, Z and H perms I can already identify from any 2 faces, but those are special cases.

 

[Shaky Hands]

Also @Shaky Hands: The probabilities of the different permutations can be intuitively inferred from the rotational symmetry so, all the ones that look different if rotated a U, U2, U' have 4 cases and hence 4 times the chance, like T, J, V, A, U... the ones that look the same with a U2, like E or Z have just 2 times the chance and the ones that look exactly the same in the 4 rotations have just 1 time the chance (which is 1/72, as you very well point out). So right now I'm confused because, by this rule, I would say H-perm would be just 1/72 and not 1/36 but I must be wrong because 16*4 = 64 so there must be 3 others with 2 chances and 2 with just 1 to add up to 72 ... but then again, maybe not, because there's also the solved case, which is also 1/72... or is it?

My mistake. H is 1/72 and solved is 1/72.

So:
8/72 Aa/Ab
2/72 E
4/72 F
16/72 Ga/Gb/Gc/Gd
1/72 H
8/72 Ja/Jb
2/72 Na/Nb
8/72 Ra/Rb
4/72 T
8/72 Ua/Ub
4/72 V
4/72 Y
2/72 Z
1/72 Solved

TOTAL = 72/72 or 100%

 

[mafergut]

Great tips everyone!

I did try out some Old Pochmann about 6 months ago and learned the Y perm then. I've forgotten it by now, but it should be easier to relearn, so I'll add that pretty soon. I also at one point used one of the J perms for parity, but this was at a different angle. I'll have to consider if I use the same algorithm I used back then, or if I learn it at a new angle.

Overall, it seems some AUF moves are required to recognize these, at least at first. Or I need to turn the cube to look at back faces as well. Is it even technically possible to identify all cases by looking at only 2 faces? The U, Z and H perms I can already identify from any 2 faces, but those are special cases.

@mark49152 has the best guide there is for 2-sided pll recognition:
https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/two-sided-pll-recognition-guide.41108/

 

[Logiqx]

@Jason Green: What Mark said plus look for opportunities to use empty slots. This can sometimes avoid the need for unnecessary rotations and also look out for cases where the edge is correctly oriented but you feel the need to rotate. The "intuitive" approach for a few of these cases is to rotate, set up, rotate, insert whereas there are some fast 11-move RU solutions and/or 7 move RUF solutions without rotations.

Once you've mastered all of what Mark has said and use empty slots effectively you can start looking at how to avoid rotations for the cases where the edge is badly oriented (e.g. RUF algs). Beyond that you can also look how to solve straight from one slot to another which on occasions can be as few as 5 moves. I didn't really use many fancy tricks until I was averaging sub-20 but I think I have a couple of dozen tricks that I use nowadays.

 

[Lid]

I don't remember much from when I was learning OLl/PLL back in 2007, but I know that the 4 Gperms was the last ones. I use the ones where the headlights are on the left for all cases (see my webpage).

Square-1 news ..: got my first sub15 a5 today: 14.535, (14.042), 14.744, (22.032[p]), 15.432 = 14.904

Spoiler: Scambles

Average of 5: 14.904
1. 14.535 (1, 0) / (-1, -4) / (0, -3) / (1, -2) / (-4, -4) / (3, 0) / (1, 0) / (-3, 0) / (3, 0) / (-3, 0) / (0, -3) / (5, -2) / (-2, -4)
2. (14.042) (0, 2) / (-5, -5) / (5, -4) / (4, -2) / (-1, 0) / (-3, 0) / (-2, -1) / (2, 0) / (3, -2) / (-4, -4) / (-2, 0) / (-2, 0) /
3. 14.744 (1, 0) / (-1, -1) / (-2, -2) / (-4, -1) / (6, 0) / (-3, 0) / (0, -2) / (3, 0) / (-5, -3) / (-4, 0) / (-2, -5) / (-4, -4)
4. (22.032[p]) (4, 0) / (3, 0) / (0, -3) / (5, -4) / (1, -2) / (5, -4) / (0, -2) / (-3, 0) / (-2, 0) / (0, -4) / (-2, -5) / (2, 0) / (0, -2)
5. 15.432 (-3, -4) / (1, -2) / (6, 0) / (-1, -4) / (0, -3) / (1, 0) / (3, 0) / (-3, 0) / (-1, -5) / (3, 0) / (1, -4) / (-2, 0) / (6, 0)

Gigaminx, new PB 16:29
I have changed the order I solve it in.
So now it's
1: first 6 centers.
2: crossedges
3: F2L pairs
4: last 6 centers
5: the 2 red edges then the 3 S2L pairs.
6: 2x (edge + 2 S2L pairs)
7: last 9 edges
8: 2nd to last face
9: LL!
Many steps ... but it's a big puzzle

 

[muchacho]

2x2 PB single: 2.360 (it was 2.479 from 12-sep)

scramble:
R F R' U2 R

Spoiler: solution

x2
R' U2 R U' R'

https://alg.cubing.net/?setup=R_F_R-_U2_R&puzzle=2x2x2&alg=x2_ R-_U2_R_U-_R-

I did not 1-look it, it was just pure luck on an easy scramble.

 

[mafergut]

2x2 PB single: 2.360 (it was 2.479 from 12-sep)

scramble:
R F R' U2 R

Spoiler: solution

x2
R' U2 R U' R'

https://alg.cubing.net/?setup=R_F_R-_U2_R&puzzle=2x2x2&alg=x2_ R-_U2_R_U-_R-

I did not 1-look it, it was just pure luck on an easy scramble.

My first idea was to try for red face but even on white face I did not see the OLL skip, I would usually make a face like that as R' U y L' U' L or F' U L' U' L which leads to a bad OLL in this case. Well done!

By the way, yesterday I finished a 4x4 Ao100 (done in two days). I got 1:38.xx with a best Ao12 of 1:33.80. I think 3-2-3 pairing has already sunk in. As predicted much more regular times, no super good ones, almost no bad ones either.

Spoiler: Time distribution

1:15+: XX 2
1:20+: XXXXXXXXX 9
1:25+: XXXXXXXXXXX 11
1:30+: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 18
1:35+: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 16
1:40+: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX 17
1:45+: XXXXXXXXXXX 11
1:50+: XXXXX 5
1:55+: XXX 3
2:00+: XXXX 4
2:05+: 0
2:10+: X 1
2:15+: X 1

 

[muchacho]

Nice times. I'm getting closer to 2:00 on 4x4, once there I'll start using a better pairing (still doing 1 at a time, or 2 with that flipping alg).

edit:
Ao5 PB on 3x3: 19.503

Not a great improvement (it was 19.553) but it's the first PB since changing colors and cube, and also a few solves later just 0.2 away from ao12 PB with 5 sub-20 solves, I'm getting closer to my times (still like 1-1,5 seconds away).

Spoiler

16944 10-may-2016 10:58:32 00:19.704 R2 D R2 D' B2 R2 B2 R2 D2 F2 D B R B' U F2 U2 R U R2 B' U2
16943 10-may-2016 10:57:48 00:18.927 L2 U2 F2 U R2 F2 U' F2 U R2 U2 B R' U B' U2 R' L D2 U L' U'
16942 10-may-2016 10:56:55 00:28.926 R2 B2 D' F2 D R2 B2 R2 U' R2 D' L' U2 F2 L' B' F R' L2 D' U'
16941 10-may-2016 10:56:10 00:19.880 D' L2 D L2 U L2 B2 F2 U B2 D2 L' D L B L' B2 R' L' D' B2
16940 10-may-2016 10:55:09 00:17.902 F2 D R2 D' F2 L2 U' R2 B2 U' F2 L' R2 D' B L2 B2 D2 B' L2

edit2:
Ao12 PB: 21.308 (was 21.380)

Spoiler

16967 10-may-2016 11:59:30 00:18.888 U2 R2 U R2 U' F2 D F2 L2 B2 D2 L' F' U' R' F U' B2 R B' D2 U2
16966 10-may-2016 11:58:39 00:22.440 F2 R2 B2 D' B2 F2 U2 R2 D' B2 L F' R L2 D2 L B2 L F2 L2 D'
16965 10-may-2016 11:57:44 00:20.216 B2 U' B2 U2 F2 D' F2 L2 D' R2 B2 L' B' F' D' R' B U2 L' F R2 U'
16964 10-may-2016 11:56:35 00:23.326 D2 B2 D R2 D2 R2 L2 B2 R2 L2 U F U' L' U2 R2 B L2 F' R' F U'
16963 10-may-2016 11:55:51 00:18.095 B2 U L2 U' B2 L2 B2 D U R2 D B R' D' U2 B U' F' D B U2 L
16962 10-may-2016 11:55:06 00:21.831 B2 F2 U2 R2 D' R2 L2 D R2 F2 U2 B U R2 B F R' U L' B D
16961 10-may-2016 11:54:24 00:18.206 B2 D L2 F2 U2 F2 D B2 D' R2 L2 B L' B' F' D' U B' U' B' L'
16960 10-may-2016 11:53:32 00:25.350 F2 R2 F2 U L2 D L2 B2 L2 D U F' R D L' D L D2 U' L D'
16959 10-may-2016 11:52:18 00:21.470 R2 B2 D2 L2 D L2 F2 D' L2 D2 U' L B' L' F' D R' B F2 U2 B2 L2
16958 10-may-2016 11:51:33 00:19.928 B2 R2 F2 U B2 L2 F2 L2 D2 U' R2 B' R' D F' U F L U
16957 10-may-2016 11:50:41 00:29.094 D2 B2 U' L2 B2 F2 U L2 B2 F2 U R U F' L' U R D' F' U2 L U2
16956 10-may-2016 11:49:53 00:21.432 B2 F2 D2 R2 D R2 B2 R2 D' F2 D' F' D2 F' D L F2 D B2 D2 B

 

[h2f]

@muchacho @mafergut Nice times and congrats.

 

[sqAree]

By the way, yesterday I finished a 4x4 Ao100 (done in two days). I got 1:38.xx with a best Ao12 of 1:33.80. I think 3-2-3 pairing has already sunk in. As predicted much more regular times, no super good ones, almost no bad ones either.

Oh how did you manage to overtake me sneakily!
My best ao50 is still around 1:43. Maybe I should consider switching to 3-2-3 as well.

 

[earth2dan]

When I seem to notice it more is when trying to do an F' by pushing up on DFR with my right thumb and I have the R face a bit misaligned forward (in clockwise direction. Then the UFR corner catches on the U center. For example at the end of a T-perm if I don't do a complete R' before the final F.

This exactly was my single biggest problem with the YueXiao when I first starting solving with it, F' with right thumb catches. I dropped the YueXiao for a while but was playing with it again over the weekend and found that if I slowed down a bit and focused on cleaner turning I was getting better times overall and it felt really good with minimal catching. I'm stuck in this limbo of having 4 or 5 different 3x3's and I can't pick a main out of them. I just keep bouncing around...

I think most people in this thread have went through the process of learning full PLL. Is it just a matter starting with 2-look PLL and adding more algs at whatever pace feels comfortable, or?

I notice 2-look OLL is also taught with some different algs for corner orientation than those I'm used to. (Mine preserve corner positions.) Looks like they are the most popular on algdb for those OLL cases, so I'd better give them a chance as well.

I was 2-Look PLL for quite a while, but then when I decided to learn full PLL I brute force memorized all but the G and N perms over the course a few days with lots and lots of drilling. Then I took my time learning the G perms 2 at a time (the ones that set each other up, so I could drill back and forth). And lastly the N perms. Chris Olsen has a great "Like a Pro" series of videos on how he executes his PLL's. I don't like some of his algs, but some are fantastic finger tricky algs that I have learned and really like.

I know only about half my OLL's now. And I'm very slowly learning more cases at a comfortable pace. The cost/benefit of learning more OLL's is not nearly as good as learning the PLL's was for me.

I have a question for all the sub 20ers, or everyone really. How many "special F2L" algs do you use. Like if you watch Chris Olson's advanced F2L videos he has many different ways to do lots of cases from different angles and such. I pretty much do each case in the same way with rotations if needed, which I know is bad.

For those of you that do use them do you have any tips on how to start? When I learned full OLL and PLL I would drill them until I learned them well, and then wait for them to come up in solves which was really fun. I guess it just feels like if I learn some of these they will show up so rarely I'll forget. Or maybe it's just the fact that there are an infinite number that messes with my head.

Perhaps WV would be more worthwhile. But quit trying to change the topic Jason.

I definitely have adopted a few of Chris's F2L algs. The way I practiced them was to just creatively find ways to set up the F2L case, and then execute the alg. It's no different really than drilling any other alg, just takes a bit more time to set up. Though, I think the process of setting up the F2L cases is very beneficial too, just for your spacial awareness and overall understanding of the puzzle.

In timed solves, if I encountered a case that I know I'm learning a new alg for I would just scratch the solve and take my time to work through that case (unless, of course, it's a competition solve. Then I'm on autopilot )

 

[mafergut]

@earth2dan: Nice to see you again with your account restored, Canadian flag and everything

 

[CLL Smooth]

I guess this thread is no longer Marcel's introduction thread. Sad to see the name change. I remember this thread from its inception. I never contributed to it but it was on the front page nearly everyday so I kept up with it pretty well.
Glad to see the thread still going strong but I will miss seeing the old name.