Older cubers discussions

[MarcelP]

- Full solve 1:48

Wow! that's insane fast I check my first BLD on cam and splits are like this:

memo 1 minute
execution 2.40 (1.55 edges, 45 corners).

I guess M2 is worth it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSCaeDfPeQg

BTW, I practiced memo in the train to work every day for a month back then. Now a memo takes about 4 minutes.. BLAH!

 

[mark49152]

Wow! that's insane fast

That's sighted though - so no pauses trying to recall, and no being careful not to go too fast and lose track of where I am, etc. I did this only out of curiosity and have no delusions that my actual execution time would be close to that.

I have no idea how long memo would take me - I am really struggling with that. I'd be happy with 4 mins memo and 2 mins execution as that would get me two attempts at the comp. But I can't even do edges on their own yet. I'm trying to use audio for edges and images for corners as suggested by Noah. What did you do?

 

[MarcelP]

I have no idea how long memo would take me - I am really struggling with that. I'd be happy with 4 mins memo and 2 mins execution

I did make a print of my letter scheme, I wrote letters on a cube with a waterproof marker. Did hundreds of memo only. I memorized A, E, I, M, Q, U as my first letters on each face. That way I was used to finding their position rather quick. But after doing literally hundres of attemps I did get no more than a hand full success. I decided that it was too challenging for me and gave up. I will start again one day. There are many things I could work on to make it easier. I will buy you a round of beer when you do get a succes on your upcomming competition.

BTW, I hardly did ever fail in memo, but 90% of failures come from doing execution wrong.

 

[mark49152]

I will buy you a round of beer when you do get a succes on your upcomming competition.

BTW, I hardly did ever fail in memo, but 90% of failures come from doing execution wrong.

Cheers, maybe I will come to Dutch nationals to collect

Interesting that your challenge was with execution. I have no problem with that. Maybe because I practice it separately? So I will study the cube and write down the letters, then solve the cube under the table while reading off the sheet, so I can practise execution without having to remember the letters. With that and sighted solves, I ironed out most of my execution problems, including the M2 slice weirdness.

Memory is my problem. I can't even remember what I did this morning. Memorizing a dozen letter pairs seems a ridiculous challenge. How people like Maskow remember tens of cubes, I have no idea. They must be androids or aliens.

How did you remember your pairs?

 

[Logiqx]

Nice one, good progress. The ABHC average cut makes a nice target!

I set my personal targets based on your analysis of relative solve times, using the IQM of 4.89 for 4x4 relative to 3x3. However, I do think 1:25 on 4x4 is an easier target than 17.5 on 3x3, at least for me. Perhaps the steep slope of the 4x4/3x3 line just shows that there are lots of people who focus much more on 3x3, and for someone who puts serious practice into both events they should expect to be nearer the left side, so closer to 4x. Thoughts?

Yeah. I'll be happy if I can do the Ao5 but I have no expectation of making the cut-off because half of my solves are sup-1:30. I'll just see what happens and hope for an easy solve.

I concur with your thoughts relating to relative times.

Edit: Good work with 3BLD guys!

 

[MarcelP]

How did you remember your pairs?

Trust me, you do not want BLD tips from people like me.. LOL

I am going to tell you anyway how I did it. I speak several languages so I can find words easily for two letters. I mix languages up, but as long as the sentence makes sence.

For example

PT CG AQ
PiraTe CiGar Aqua = Pirate is smoking a cigar on the water.

 

[mark49152]

Trust me, you do not want BLD tips from people like me.. LOL

PT CG AQ
PiraTe CiGar Aqua = Pirate is smoking a cigar on the water.

Well, I like your method better than mine . You have one image for three pairs. I have been doing one image per pair, or at least one image element per letter, for example, a pirate up a tree watching a cat on the ground play with ants in a queue (although porn is easier to remember ). I think your approach is more efficient.

I have also been trying audio, so would imagine myself saying a word like pat-chug-ash over and over.

Edit: Nice BLD solve! Impressive that you only took a minute for memo.

 

[MarcelP]

Edit: Nice BLD solve! Impressive that you only took a minute for memo.

Thanks! It all depends on having no flipped edges and corners with me. With only two flipped edges my memo drops to over 2 minutes.. Well at least that was then.. Now I will take for ever for memo

After a real tired day at work I did my daily Ao50 and broke my PB Ao12 and Ao5..

Spoiler: After 29 solves

Generated By csTimer on 2015-8-13
solves/total: 29/29

single
best: 14.93
worst: 23.33

mean of 3
current: 20.91 (σ = 0.96)
best: 15.72 (σ = 0.69)

avg of 5
current: 19.46 (σ = 1.57)
best: 16.18 (σ = 0.14)

avg of 12
current: 17.71 (σ = 1.71)
best: 16.59 (σ = 1.07)

Average: 18.46 (σ = 2.23)
Mean: 18.54

10. 18.14 D B' F' D2 B2 F R2 U2 R2 U2 F L2 R' F D2 R D B F
11. 15.59 R' B2 L U2 R2 F' D F' U R2 L2 D2 L2 U' F2 L2 F2 B
12. 16.35 R2 F' U R' B U2 D L' B' U' F' B U2 F D2 R2 B' U2 F2 U2 L2
13. 16.64 U2 L' F2 L2 U B U2 L F' D2 L2 B' D2 F2 U2 R2 F U2 F'
14. 16.32 D' U2 B F' D2 L2 R2 B2 F L2 D' R' U F R' D' F2 L'
15. 20.47 D L' D2 L F2 D2 F2 L' D2 L' U2 L D' F' R' U B D F
16. 14.93 B2 R2 F D2 F R2 F2 L2 D2 L2 U2 R U' F R D' L' B R U2 B
17. 16.03 R2 D2 L F2 R' U2 F2 R F2 U2 R2 B U' F L' U' R2 U L' D' F'
18. 16.20 B U2 F2 L2 F U2 F' L2 D2 L2 F R' B D U2 R D F' U2
19. 19.38 B' U L2 U2 B2 F2 U' L2 D' B2 F2 U' L' F' U2 B F2 L' U' F' L
20. 17.20 B2 U' R2 D2 U' F2 R2 D B2 U' B2 L' F D2 B2 R F R U R2 U
21. 16.00 U F2 R2 U2 R2 B' L2 R2 F2 D2 L2 U F2 U' L' R F' D U2
22. 16.21 R D2 B2 F2 R2 D2 L' U2 R U2 B2 F D U2 R' D' L2 U' B2 U2
23. 16.40 U' B2 L2 U' B2 D2 R2 D' L2 F' L' D R' F U' B L2 B2 L2 D2
24. 17.26 D' R2 U' R2 B2 L2 U2 B2 U' L2 D' F' D2 R' F L D2 F D2 L2 U2
25. 17.65 B' U2 B2 L2 R2 U R2 F2 R2 B2 U' B' L2 D B' U2 L' F' U' R D
26. 16.05 R2 U F2 U2 L2 F2 U' R2 F2 U2 B2 R' U F2 U L' R B D' U F

I was talking to my wife while solving and did not realise I was doing great.. LOL.. I had noticed my slight progress allready over the last few weeks. The thing that I have changed is that I have been doing slow solves like Chrisopher Wright. I mean I try to do that. I can not turn slow and get great times like he, but I do every day about 50 solves untimed while watching TV like that. And I feel that during speedsolves I find my pairs more easily.

So I will study the cube and write down the letters, then solve the cube under the table while reading off the sheet,

Yeah, I made this then and did similair training with cube under the table:

 

[mark49152]

Yeah, I made this then and did similair training with cube under the table:

What I meant was I write down the letters for the solve, like PT CG AQ. Then I solve under the table while reading those off the sheet. So blind solving without relying on memory . It tests whether I can remember the letter scheme (your diagram) and the execution and setup moves correctly, without stressing my brain with having to remember the letters as well. That's why I'm confident to say my execution is OK, because if I eliminate the memo aspect, I can solve an out-of-sight cube no problem.

Congrats on the PBs, that is a nice jump. Your ao12 is only 0.05 off mine!

 

[MarcelP]

Congrats on the PBs, that is a nice jump. Your ao12 is only 0.05 off mine!

I just checked and I broke my Ao50 PB as well, but I had been breaking it a few times over the last few days.

 

[chtiger]

Also, back to the BLD topic, I did some ao12s with M2/OP sighted execution only, so measuring execution without any regard to memo or delays due to recall. Here are my results:-
- Full solve 1:48
- M2 edges and parity 1:06
- OP corners 0:40

So my ratio of edges to corners is 1.65. @chtiger, I know you are faster than me, but it would be interesting to compare your ratio, using OP edges and corners, if you are interested. (Remember to include parity with edges.)

I thought the results were interesting because even though there are 11-14 edge swaps to 7-9 corner swaps, typically, I expected that to be cancelled out by the shorter edge swap alg, but clearly not. it might be partly explained by the fact I have practised corners for longer. And the longer edge setups must be a factor.

That's excellent. You'll be faster than me by next week.
I'll usually judge my execution time by time/target (total exec time/total targets). I count flipped/twisted pieces as 2 targets and I also count parity as a target since it requires long algorithm. Anything below 4.5 sec/target is good for me, but remember I'm a fairly slow solver/turner in general.

Yesterday I had a relatively pause-free solve with no parity, so it's probably a good example to use. Execution time was about 1:25. 12 edges, 8 corners, so 4.25 sec/target. I've never timed edges/corners separately, but I'd guess the rates would be pretty much the same since the algs and setup moves are similar. So assuming 4.25s for all targets, then edges would be 51 sec and corners 34 sec. I may do some solves like you did in the next day or two to find out for certain.

Your rate for edges is higher than corners, which should not be the case for M2. You are definitely more proficient with corners at this point. With more practice at M2, if your corners stayed at 40 sec, then I'd guess your edges would be about 45.

 

[chtiger]

I'm having all kinds of technical problems with the forum. Tried a post a while ago and it said it would be posted after moderator approval. Just tried again and it shows me as having made the most recent post in this thread, but my post is not here. So there may end up being multiple similar posts by me. I'll clean it up if things ever start working normally.

Edit: I tried again and got the 'post will appear after moderator approval'. But apparently this post about posts not working actually posted. Sorry Mark, the forum does not want you to know my edge/corner ratios for blind.

 

[MarcelP]

I'm having all kinds of technical problems with the forum. Tried a post a while ago and it said it would be posted after moderator approval. Just tried again and it shows me as having made the most recent post in this thread, but my post is not here. So there may end up being multiple similar posts by me. I'll clean it up if things ever start working normally.

Edit: I tried again and got the 'post will appear after moderator approval'. But apparently this post about posts not working actually posted. Sorry Mark, the forum does not want you to know my edge/corner ratios for blind.

We are seeing your post.. Try again?

 

[chtiger]

I see my response to Mark from yesterday finally showed up. Anybody see a reason why it needed moderator approval?

Anyway, I did 10 solves the way Mark did, sighted and writing down memo, and timing edges and corners separately. Averages were (counting parity as edge target)---

edges -- 13 targets, 3.95 seconds/target, 51.4 seconds
corners -- 8.1 targets, 3.84 seconds/target, 31.1 seconds

Nothing really surprising. Good news for me is apparently my pauses during actual blind solves aren't too bad. Bad news is my turning speed is really slow.

 

[TDM]

I see my response to Mark from yesterday finally showed up. Anybody see a reason why it needed moderator approval?

For newer members, some posts do need moderator approval. It shouldn't be long before you don't have to have any posts approved.

 

[Logiqx]

After a real tired day at work I did my daily Ao50 and broke my PB Ao12 and Ao5.

Very nice. Looks like I have some catching up to do.

 

[chtiger]

How people like Maskow remember tens of cubes, I have no idea. They must be androids or aliens.

I watched somebody do 12/13 Mbld at US Nats, and was amazed. Checked the results later and he only finished 8th. That's crazy. How do so many people do so many cubes?

How did you remember your pairs?

You weren't asking me, but I'll share anyway. I still don't use letter pairs. Coming up with 400+ images is too much for me. Too many weird letter combos, and others letter pairs will get mixed up. I definitely recommend letter pairs if you are going to do Mbld or 4bld, but I think my method is easy enough for 3bld (still not recommending it though).

For edges, I don't use letters, I use the location of sticker (e.g. front right sticker is FR). That way there are only 22 images to come up with. I then pair 2 together and place them in different rooms of my house. An example lucky memo would start UF,RF,FD,FR,BU,FL...., that would be UFo on the RooF outside, FooD in FRidge in kitchen, BUg on FLoor in living room, etc. If I am doing multiple solves in a row, I will alternate that method with grouping 3 images together, so I'll have less chance of accidentally using previous memo.

For corners, I use letters, but I just memo them however makes some sense. When you get a vowel, you can make 'words' so it's easy unless you end up with all consonants. I'll put them in a pairs or groups of 3 if needed. Example scramble just now unfortunately yields all consonants VPRTSXW. I'd break it up VP RTS XW and just remember the letters and not make images. I memo corners last and solve first, so it's not hard to do.

 

[mark49152]

Lots

Thanks for the info. For OP edges I guess it's not surprising that your time per target is about the same as corners. I did not count the targets in my averages so can't work that out with accuracy, but you are right that I'm more proficient with corners so maybe I'll repeat the exercise after I've got better with M2.

Regarding memo, don't you find it more constrained to have to come up with images that match syllables like RD or RF? Plus, one word per sticker is less efficient than one word per pair. Actually I found I picked up the letters quite quickly. Not only do I quickly associate a location with a letter, but also a piece, so when tracing cycles if I see the red sticker of a red/yellow edge I immediately think E without having to think about where the piece goes. That probably seems obvious to a experienced BLDer but it was unexpected for me.

I have tried various ideas for memo that I've seen in various videos, but so far, the thing that seems to work best for me is to use the first thing that comes into my head, rather than enforce some consistent scheme of images or combinations. That means my scene is often a bit of a mess. For example, GM TW FC might be a car (General Motors) parked on a football (club) pitch in Taiwan. In a different context or order, the same letter pairs might conjure up different images/elements, like FC TW GM could be fish and chips twice at the Grand Metropolitan hotel.

I'm struggling a bit with audio, as I can't stop myself from focusing on the letters instead of the sounds, so I may as well just remember the letters as you do. Not sure whether to just abandon audio and try images for everything.

 

[chtiger]

Regarding memo, don't you find it more constrained to have to come up with images that match syllables like RD or RF? Plus, one word per sticker is less efficient than one word per pair. Actually I found I picked up the letters quite quickly. Not only do I quickly associate a location with a letter, but also a piece, so when tracing cycles if I see the red sticker of a red/yellow edge I immediately think E without having to think about where the piece goes. That probably seems obvious to a experienced BLDer but it was unexpected for me..

Not sure I understand your first question. If you're doing letter pairs and get R followed by D, you end up with an image for RD, same as with my right down sticker. The advantage to my way is there are only 22 possible letter pairs ('pair' being a single target in my method) instead of 462 possible pairs. I don't have to worry about coming up with an image for the 21 possible pairs starting with Q, or 21 with X, etc. There's only a few weird ones to worry about for me.

It is less efficient though, which is why pretty much everybody recommends letter pairs. It just works better for me. If I did letter pairs, any time savings I'd get by memoing 6 less images, I'd spend trying to come up with something memorizable for the awkward letter pairs. Also since I do pair (or group 3) targets together, my method isn't as inefficient as it seems. Taking RD and RF stickers for example, I'd visualize a red roof. That's essentially 1 image for 2 targets, since a red roof isn't really any harder to visualize than a roof in general. On the other hand, if you got the letters RDRF doing letter pairs, you could visualize a red roof and have 1 image for 4 targets. So yeah, my way is twice as inefficient, but not as hard to memo as it may seem. Not trying to convince you to use my method, just sharing why I prefer it, and hopefully, if you are struggling with memo, maybe you can take something from it that will help.

 

[chtiger]

Speaking of learning letter pairs, I don't know what I'm going to do with 4bld centers when I get back to trying that. Letter pairs seems inevitable but an example solve using letter pairs for centers yields IE QA GJ RK WB NH OS LT PL. How do people come up with images to memo that? I've stared at IE for 5 minutes and still haven't thought of anything. Seems very difficult to me.