[WR] Feliks Zemdegs 3x3 OH single 6.88

[Rocky0701]

Jeez, this thread has over 100 more posts than the thread about Collin's WR an it's only been up a couple of days. I've never seen a thread go this crazy.

 

[Isaac Lai]

Let's say he somehow managed to put the scrambled cube in his pocket and pull out a solved cube from another pocket without anyone at the competition noticing and stops the timer at a world record time. He uploads a video where the cheating is clearly visible but we shouldn't DNF the solve because it would be unfair. Seems about right.

https://youtu.be/arebpHLl7_g
Skip to 2:01

 

[joshsailscga]

https://youtu.be/arebpHLl7_g
Skip to 2:01

On national news, too. Shame, shame.

 

[DanpHan]

you can make extreme examples, but look at the situation in Mexico a few years ago. There was no video evidence and they were still able to determine, based on the cuber, and the situation, that he definitely cheated. Feliks is not a cuber who needs to cheat to attain world records.

Honestly, I would rather just have ever WR require video (other than FMC). I don't want to stray too far off topic though. I made my case long ago, and more people disagree with me than agree with me, which is fine. If people are happy with the current system, then there's not much more to say.

(This will probably be my only post on this issue) A different example: Let's say (and this is just a hypothetical situation, I know this didn't really happen) that the scrambler in this particular circumstance DID intentionally give Feliks an easier scramble. It would've gone through and there would be nothing we could do about it if the board couldn't use video evidence to determine the validity of the solve, and I don't think that's fair. Just because they didn't need video evidence for the situation in Mexico doesn't mean it can't, or shouldn't, be used to make a correct decision in other events. Take, for instance, the Maskow multibld orientation incident. The solves weren't dq'ed, but it did help those involved to make sure that future solves were within regulations.

Yes, we know Feliks isn't a cuber that needs to cheat, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't check that the solve is within regulations, or that other solves by him or other competitors are within regulations. Also, cheating can exist at that high of a level. Let's not forget the Marcin Zalewski incident. Hell, the delegate was involved in that.

 

[EeeeeWarne]

All these issues about a mis-scramble are silly. You need to think about what a WR is measuring. A WR single is the fastest solve of a cube (in that event) in competition. Different world records are going to be set on different scrambles, so long as those scrambles are valid ones, and the cube was solved with legal timer stops etc. then if it is the fastest in the world, it should be a world record. If WRs needed to be set on the specific set scrambles, then we should ditch randomised scrambles and have the same scramble every time - people can just get faster at that. It'd be like magic.

 

[Pro94]

All these issues about a mis-scramble are silly. You need to think about what a WR is measuring. A WR single is the fastest solve of a cube (in that event) in competition. Different world records are going to be set on different scrambles, so long as those scrambles are valid ones, and the cube was solved with legal timer stops etc. then if it is the fastest in the world, it should be a world record. If WRs needed to be set on the specific set scrambles, then we should ditch randomised scrambles and have the same scramble every time - people can just get faster at that. It'd be like magic.

Well, if the scramble was not legal, there's no doubt that the solve would have been disqualification.
There are regulations about scrambles and mis-scrambles and they were not followed at all. I can understand that DNF-ing is quite harsh but what is the sense of having some rules if they can be bypassed if necessary?
There were two mistakes: the mis-scramble and the fact that solve was not checked, like happened the last week in China. (For those are saying that is not possible to control every single record, I say that this is true, but I don't think that is so difficult to check solves in events like 3x3 where a reconstruction can be made in a few minutes. Here we also have a video which makes things even easier).
Validating solve seems that these two errors cancel each other out, which I do not think so fair.

 

[tseitsei]

Again, this touches on the issue of using video evidence only to punish. Everything was assured to be accurate by the scrambler, the delegate signed off, and only the video evidence raised suspicion. This would have gone through without any suspicion if no one had filmed it. Feliks is lucky that he still has the WR that he earned, but he had every right to hide his personal video, and there would have been little the WCA could have done about it.

If a mistake makes it past the competition, video should NOT be used as a method for retroactively DNFing. Either that or every WR should require video. It's about a fair, equal playing field.

This is IMO a VERY stupid idea.

Think about a situation where someone commits a crime and can't be sentenced about it because there is not enough evidence available. Then I commit the same crime and film it and send the video to the police. Now they still can't sentence me either because, by your logic, it's not fair to sentence me based on that video evidence since similar evidence was not available in some other case...

Of course WCA will use all evidence they can when making decisions like this.
And IMO WCA has once again made the right decision here...

 

[megaminxwin]

Jeez, this thread has over 100 more posts than the thread about Collin's WR an it's only been up a couple of days. I've never seen a thread go this crazy.

For all the wrong reasons too. Ugh.

 

[adimare]

This is IMO a VERY stupid idea.

Unnecessarily harsh comment is unnecessarily harsh.

Think about a situation where someone commits a crime and can't be sentenced about it because there is not enough evidence available. Then I commit the same crime and film it and send the video to the police. Now they still can't sentence me either because, by your logic, it's not fair to sentence me based on that video evidence since similar evidence was not available in some other case...

If someone is caught cheating, by any means, of course their results shouldn't stand. However, video evidence uploaded voluntarily by competitors being used to retroactively DNF their results because someone else did their job poorly is just a huge incentive for great solvers not to film themselves or upload videos of their solves.

 

[APdRF]

The board is there for something, if we follow the rules blindly no matter how unfair they are, why we need a board at all? I'm still very happy with the decision, the WR was very well deserved

Also, it is impossible to film every single WR, you don't know if you are going to break one. Of course there's people that have more odds than others, but they simply don't know. And take cameras to film every single solve at every single competition can be sooo expensive.

 

[tseitsei]

Unnecessarily harsh comment is unnecessarily harsh.

Nothing personal. I think the IDEA is stupid not that DeeDubb (or you) is stupid. Actually I think that DeeDubb is quite smart and very helpful person

If someone is caught cheating, by any means, of course their results shouldn't stand. However, video evidence uploaded voluntarily by competitors being used to retroactively DNF their results because someone else did their job poorly is just a huge incentive for great solvers not to film themselves or upload videos of their solves.

So a scrambler does an accidental misscramble that results in a cube state that has for example 6 moves optimal solution and someone solves that in ~1.5s. Now the WR is set to 1.5s and the wr video is uploaded and everyone can easily see that the solution is only 6 moves long. Yet there is nothing anyone can do about it because that video evidence cannot be used to DNF the solve when that obviously should be done. Now we are stuck with a WR that everyone knows isn't breakable on a legit scramble and nobody can do anything about that. Doesn't sound a cool situation to me... How about you? Is this fair?

That is why we need to have a WCA board that solves this kind of incidents CASE BY CASE because they can all be quite different and there are very many things that need to be taken into account...

 

[notfeliks]

So a scrambler does an accidental misscramble that results in a cube state that has for example 6 moves optimal solution and someone solves that in ~1.5s. Now the WR is set to 1.5s and the wr video is uploaded and everyone can easily see that the solution is only 6 moves long. Yet there is nothing anyone can do about it because that video evidence cannot be used to DNF the solve when that obviously should be done. Now we are stuck with a WR that everyone knows isn't breakable on a legit scramble and nobody can do anything about that. Doesn't sound a cool situation to me... How about you? Is this fair?

This would not happen for a variety of reasons. In your scenario, once the video is released, do you REALLY think it would be allowed to stand? Actually, I find it hard to believe it would ever be approved in the first place. The cubing community would be in outrage, and rightfully so.

As others have said before me, the regulations are more guidelines than rules to be followed blindly; having a board for individual cases is both practical and fair.

 

[tseitsei]

This would not happen for a variety of reasons. In your scenario, once the video is released, do you REALLY think it would be allowed to stand? Actually, I find it hard to believe it would ever be approved in the first place. The cubing community would be in outrage, and rightfully so.

As others have said before me, the regulations are more guidelines than rules to be followed blindly; having a board for individual cases is both practical and fair.

Yeah That is exactly what I'm trying to say here.

But adimare and some others seem to think otherwise. Of course in the situation I described the solve should be DNFed based on video evidence, but adimare and DeeDubb said that video evidence should not be used to DNF solves after the comp. And if that was actually the case (no video evidence allowed) then we couldn't DNF the solve retroactively.

 

[XTowncuber]

Hey great solve Feliks. Probably the most difficult speedsolve WR to beat now.

 

[amostay2004]

Lol guys, stop giving extreme examples of how the rules cannot be applied to the book. There are grey areas, we get it. Which is why as many have mentioned, the WCA board has to come into play. The rules cannot fix every damn problem because speedsolving is not an established enough event to require heavy use of technology/judges/manpower to ensure every competition and every solve is 100% compliant.

The WCA and all official competitions are essentially built on trust, so live with it.

 

[SpeedCubeReview]

I cannot believe how extreme this has gotten. Human error occurs in all sports and events. The error did not cause any obvious advantage, there seems to be no attempt at cheating, and if it was a non-world record solve people would not be freaking out. The WCA approved it and I respect their decision.

 

[mafergut]

Yeah, we all should respect the WCA board decision.
The ones that don't want to respect that well, they always have the option of creating a parallel association and start anew without any of the current WRs and their own new set of rules and regulations. This has happened with chess for some time and how many boxing associations are there, probably a handful of them.
I for one, am wishing I can go to my first WCA competition soon and I will enjoy it and forget about anything else. Of course, my chance of breaking even a NR is nill but, anyway.

 

[biscuit]

If we were talking about something with thousands/10's of thousands/100's of thousands like some big gaming tournament then having regs that it is very clear cut would be necessary. But we aren't. Sure at worlds there is a cash prize but it's not THAT much. Because of the nature of cubing (aka a very light atmosphere meant to be fun) it's not necessary nor practical to make those kinds of changes. Hopefully all of the faster cubers realize this and would not TRY to cheat or change the fact that they film it based on the fact that they COULD get there solve dnf'd. Hopefully they want it to be fair like every one else. I dunno that's just my thoughts

 

[Mollerz]

Our regulations are far more clear and concise than some big gaming tournaments with cash pools exceeding $100,000.

 

[kcl]

Example (prepared by me) with the same mistake:
1# L' U R' F' B R' U' D' F' U2 L' B' U2 (R) U' R B U2 L U' F
2# L' U R' F' B R' U' D' F' U2 L' B' U2 (R') U' R B U2 L U' F
What now? One incorrect move. Fist scramble for all (optimal solution - 17 moves), second for one person (optimal solution - 8 moves). Someone can find this solution. yay WR ~3sec! Is it fair?

Yeah, and that isn't what happened here is it?