What is necessary to be sub-10?

[IRNjuggle28]

I'm currently at around low-13 to low-14 averages. I'm finding it really difficult to transition to sub-10. I'm trying a few things:

1. CN Transition -- I'm currently dual colour neutral (if that's the term?) with white and yellow. My process is going to involve solving on each colour for a week before transitioning to the next one (currently 3 days into blue).

2. Slower turning for better lookahead -- I'm trying to turn more slowly and look ahead more. I find this does help, but eventually find my times starting to deteriorate if I don't do the occasional max speed solve.

3. Cleaning up my algorithms -- At one stage, I learned all of OLL and PLL for the sake of knowing them, but I have a load of algs that are reliant on [L U] moves and I just ain't a fan of that.

Should I look into more advanced techniques like OLLCP or some crazy F2L tricks?

Transitioning to CN at your speed has never been done successfully, as far as I know. I've heard of people switching to CN and becoming sub 12 CN, but their times with neutral cross never reached their speed with their original color(s). By all means keep trying to switch, but don't expect it to be fast, or even to be worth it.

Yes, absolutely practice slow turning and clean up algs.

What do you mean by F2L "tricks?" If you mean learning algs for bad cases, yes, you should do that. Random nice F2L solutions are useful, and unlike OLLCP and the like, they're quite intuitive most of the time. I would say go for F2L stuff but not much fancy LL stuff. Here's one good video for that. The guy who made this video, Collin Burns, has other good videos too.

 

[MikamiHero]

Transitioning to CN at your speed has never been done successfully, as far as I know. I've heard of people switching to CN and becoming sub 12 CN, but their times with neutral cross never reached their speed with their original color(s). By all means keep trying to switch, but don't expect it to be fast, or even to be worth it.

Yes, absolutely practice slow turning and clean up algs.

What do you mean by F2L "tricks?" If you mean learning algs for bad cases, yes, you should do that. Random nice F2L solutions are useful, and unlike OLLCP and the like, they're quite intuitive most of the time. I would say go for F2L stuff but not much fancy LL stuff. Here's one good video for that. The guy who made this video, Collin Burns, has other good videos too.

Thanks for the reply!

Hmm... I might drop my endeavour for CN. Even though I am only 3 days in, I'm starting to feel it's not too worth it. A few other Aussie cubers have told me at my current level, it's not worth switching over to CN. It's better off done at earlier stages of cubing.

I'll definitely work on lookahead.

F2L tricks -- I meant fancy ways of insertion I know some of the algorithms for bad cases, but there's some cases I'd love to find some algs for so I don't require a cube rotation.

 

[Hypocrism]

Thanks for the reply!

Hmm... I might drop my endeavour for CN. Even though I am only 3 days in, I'm starting to feel it's not too worth it. A few other Aussie cubers have told me at my current level, it's not worth switching over to CN. It's better off done at earlier stages of cubing.

I'll definitely work on lookahead.

F2L tricks -- I meant fancy ways of insertion I know some of the algorithms for bad cases, but there's some cases I'd love to find some algs for so I don't require a cube rotation.

I disagree with the previous poster, I think switching to CN is worth it at fast speeds. I'm only planning to go CN when I'm sub-10, and I think it gets easier as you get faster; when I was at 20 seconds I was absolutely pathetic at any other colour than white. I couldn't see pairs or anything. Now I can do yellow just as well as white, and in addition if there is a good cross for another colour, I can get sub-15, and I've never even practiced on other colours at all. Even in inspection on other colours I can see to my first pair. You learn to recognise patterns rather than absolute colours incredibly quickly and I think the effort to get it up to normal speed is worth it if you want to switch.

 

[goodatthis]

Honestly color neutrality is probably one of the most misunderstood controversies in the speedcubing community today. It's not as hard to become CN as one may think. I wouldn't really consider myself fully CN, nor did I go into solving thinking, okay, I'm going to be CN, but occasionally (actually somewhat often now), if I see an easy cross on a different color, I'll do it because I'll save more time than the decreased recognition would inhibit me.

Part of CN, IMO, is to truly be color neutral. I think that doing all cross colors at once is really important, because CN is not only being accustomed to all crosses and pairs, but also to be able to transition well between different colors, I.e. Doing blue one solve then red the next.

So if you want to become color neutral, first you should do what I did, which is doing easy crosses even if they're on a different color. If you see two cross edges lined up on orange and your normal color is white, then do orange! One thing that I find helps is if you are already doing an easy cross, try to look ahead unto your next pair during inspection, because cross to F2L transition is even harder when you're not familiar with the pieces.

Another thing I find helps is corner bias, which is looking for the corner first, since it has your cross color, and identify the edge by looking at the other two colors. Finding the edge fast is something that partially comes from process of elimination, all the more reason why you should plan out your first pair, so you only have 3 edges left to look for (and their corners of course).

In the end, you just have to take color neutrality head on and just dive right in. If you do a daily Ao100, do one CN. The lookahead will come with time, but by all means, always look for the cross that is the easiest. If there isn't any particularly easy cross, do your regular cross color. After all, that is the point of color neutrality, to take advantage of easy crosses, right?

Hope this helped!

 

[MikamiHero]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! I haven't dropped my endeavour for CN. For some reason, I'm just hating it at the moment because I have trouble recognising blue. I have a very dark blue on my cube, so I'll consider buying some bright blue replacement stickers. I reckon once I move onto colours like red and orange (i.e., brighter colours), it might be more fun

I have noticed that if see a short cross on another colour, then my times are good. It's just that I'm forcing myself to do blue until Friday (a week per colour) and I sometimes have to tackle crappy cases (which is partly the reason I'm trying to go CN is to avoid crappy cross situations).

I'll keep at it, whilst trying to improve lookahead.

Edit: Since I've done white and yellow for so long now, I find it helps to sometimes to mentally repeat the colour of my cross in my head since I'm trying to "switch" to CN. Sometimes if I don't, I might instinctively insert a pair as if white or yellow is on the bottom.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

I disagree with the previous poster, I think switching to CN is worth it at fast speeds. I'm only planning to go CN when I'm sub-10, and I think it gets easier as you get faster; when I was at 20 seconds I was absolutely pathetic at any other colour than white. I couldn't see pairs or anything. Now I can do yellow just as well as white, and in addition if there is a good cross for another colour, I can get sub-15, and I've never even practiced on other colours at all. Even in inspection on other colours I can see to my first pair. You learn to recognise patterns rather than absolute colours incredibly quickly and I think the effort to get it up to normal speed is worth it if you want to switch.

That just is factually incorrect. Many slow people have switched so CN, and nobody fast ever has. Learning a new color is very much like relearning how to solve. Forget your original color. Would it be easier to get sub 20 on a color, or sub 10 on a color? I think that's your answer. It's overly simplistic, but I think it's true. The more you learn on a color, as you do when you get faster, the farther behind your familiarity with all the other colors gets by comparison. The idea that it gets harder to switch the faster you get is supported by the theory, sure, but also by the results, which is just as important. How can you claim that it's easier to switch when you're faster when it's literally never been done before? Many people have tried. Nobody has succeeded. Your views are not supported by logic or by the experiences of other cubers. They're only supported by your own experiences, which are very limited considering that you haven't yet attempted to switch.

A lot of my views come from this thread. Give it a read and see if you still agree with yourself.

 

[Hypocrism]

That just is factually incorrect. Many slow people have switched so CN, and nobody fast ever has. Learning a new color is very much like relearning how to solve. Forget your original color. Would it be easier to get sub 20 on a color, or sub 10 on a color? I think that's your answer. It's overly simplistic, but I think it's true. The more you learn on a color, as you do when you get faster, the farther behind your familiarity with all the other colors gets by comparison. The idea that it gets harder to switch the faster you get is supported by the theory, sure, but also by the results, which is just as important. How can you claim that it's easier to switch when you're faster when it's literally never been done before? Many people have tried. Nobody has succeeded. Your views are not supported by logic or by the experiences of other cubers. They're only supported by your own experiences, which are very limited considering that you haven't yet attempted to switch.

A lot of my views come from this thread. Give it a read and see if you still agree with yourself.

Well I did some experimenting with other colours when I was averaging 20 seconds, and I did it again recently now I average 13, and I lose maybe 2 seconds now whereas I lost about 30 before. So I think it gets easier to use other colours as you get faster, at least that's how it's been for me. The more familiar you are with the patterns that occur during F2L, the easier it is to apply that to a new configuration. I'm not saying that becoming CN when fast is better than starting CN and becoming fast, I have no basis for such a claim, but that for somebody who is not yet CN, the switch will be easier when faster (eg, sub10) than when slower (eg, sub30). Also I think that becoming CN on big cubes first will help people to make the switch on their normal 3x3-I haven't heard this suggested anywhere else.

Learning a new colour certainly isn't relearning how to solve, it's learning how to apply your solving techniques to a new configuration and learning how to ignore pieces of a varying top colour like we can ignore them in our normal configuration. I don't find it that much more difficult than my normal white/yellow, and while obviously slightly slower on a non-practiced colour, my familiarity and lookahead shot up even after doing an avg12 to inform this post. As I average 15s when I go CN (and that's even when I exclude white/yellow) and that's about what I averaged on white just two months ago, I would expect to be able to reach my normal times on w/y for CN in less than a month if I solved them exclusively. If I eventually make my goal of official sub-10 and decide to go ahead with the switch, I'll document my change to CN for your interest.

I've read that thread-it's a bit old, and in that time who knows which fast cubers might have switched to CN?

 

[Tim Major]

That just is factually incorrect. Many slow people have switched so CN, and nobody fast ever has.

Slow and fast are undefined, plenty of "fast" people have, if you consider 11s fast, but not if 8s is your criteria. If 8s is your criteria they are outnumbered 29346:54 or 550:1 roughly. I doubt 550 people have transitioned (successfully) to colour neutrality.

So really it isn't "factually" incorrect. I don't think it's easier to get sub 20 on a colour than sub 10 on a colour if you're... 9s when transitioning compared to 18s. I'm sure 18s solvers transitioning average sup 20 with colour neutrality and 9 second solvers average sup 10 with colour neutrality.

I don't really like your line about how Hypocrism's points are irrelevant because he doesn't back it up with facts when you don't really either. At least he backs it up with speed?

 

[Escher]

I've tried to switch several times over the 5 years I've been cubing, and I've come to the conclusion that it's a way more complex thing than can be talked about in a few sentences or as part of a back-and-forth debate with opposing sides. My general assumption is that there is an absolute difference in recognition between what you consider your 'home' colour(s) and those you don't. This absolute difference is larger or smaller depending on how mature your practise is with your current level of ability - NOT to do with the absolute values of your speed. However, this maturity brings with it the ability to emulate a neutral solve, despite not being fully neutral. Lets say you solve f2l pretty much the same way every time - if your pattern recognition is mature for your level then you will more than likely be able to get an average relatively close to your non-neutral. The corollary of this argument is that the faster you get, the more mature overall with the cube* you are, the harder it is to go through the switching process.

Personally speaking I have spent so long at sub-10 now, that I could easily practise CN and get a 10 second average. However, to reach true neutrality would take me a huge number of hours of deliberate, cognitively aware practise. Alternatively, somebody who is around 40-50 seconds and has spent a month or so of cubing and improving quickly would have a much easier time. Someone who has taken a long time to reach that 45s level however, would probably find it extremely difficult.

Talking about transitioning by asking questions about 'fastness' or absolute solving times is missing the mark - it's about the relative difference in recognition times and how flexible this function is, depending on several factors.

*(as you already recognise it)

 

[goodatthis]

Learning a new color is very much like relearning how to solve.

This is very much untrue. With practice anything can be done effieciently. I think one thing you're missing about all of this is that to get good at anything, you need practice. Sure, nobody fast (sub 12) has ever switched to CFOP from LBL, but that doesn't mean it's too late to learn more advanced techniques.

Recently I've been seeing a lot of naysaying and lack of logical, critical thinking among cubers, despite the fact that that's exactly who we are (logical, critical people)

See my post a few posts back for more info.

 

[guysensei1]

This is very much untrue. With practice anything can be done effieciently. I think one thing you're missing about all of this is that to get good at anything, you need practice. Sure, nobody fast (sub 12) has ever switched to CFOP from LBL, but that doesn't mean it's too late to learn more advanced techniques.

Recently I've been seeing a lot of naysaying and lack of logical, critical thinking among cubers, despite the fact that that's exactly who we are (logical, critical people)

See my post a few posts back for more info.

I would like to provide a point here. Being CN from non CN is sort of like someone who's right/left handed learning to be ambidextrous. Yes, it gets easier and you could actually use the non dominant hand quite well, but it would probably never be as good as your dominant hand.

Same for CN.

 

[goodatthis]

I would like to provide a point here. Being CN from non CN is sort of like someone who's right/left handed learning to be ambidextrous. Yes, it gets easier and you could actually use the non dominant hand quite well, but it would probably never be as good as your dominant hand.

Same for CN.

But the advantage you would gain by doing an easier cross would outweigh that slight disadvantage. I think sometimes people are so caught up in the cons of it that they don't realize it's true purpose, which is to allow you to take advantage of easier crosses. Besides, as mentioned in my previous post, if there aren't any good crosses, do white

 

[Ninja Storm]

But the advantage you would gain by doing an easier cross would outweigh that slight disadvantage. I think sometimes people are so caught up in the cons of it that they don't realize it's true purpose, which is to allow you to take advantage of easier crosses. Besides, as mentioned in my previous post, if there aren't any good crosses, do white

Recognition disadvantages heavily outweigh the pros of having an easier cross. You save ~1 move on average and get a harder F2L.

The amount of time it would take for someone sub15 to become CN could much better be used to improve lookahead or perform algs.

CN is really something that comes naturally.

 

[goodatthis]

Recognition disadvantages heavily outweigh the pros of having an easier cross. You save ~1 move on average and get a harder F2L.

The amount of time it would take for someone sub15 to become CN could much better be used to improve lookahead or perform algs.

CN is really something that comes naturally.

Well I guess it must come naturally to me because I've done less than 50 solves on a cross other than white/yellow in my entire lifetime and I'm starting to get the hang of it. Besides, I don't really think color neutrality is that important anyway, I just think it's easier than it's made out to be.

Also, the ~1 move on average isn't really most accurate test, I think cross+1 is probably more important, since cubers can plan that in inspection too. I'll occasionally do another cross color even if white is easy if I can make some easy blocks for an Xcross.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

I don't really like your line about how Hypocrism's points are irrelevant because he doesn't back it up with facts when you don't really either. At least he backs it up with speed?

I do back it up with facts, even if they're vague. Even though I don't have statistics, I mention that most of the world class solvers either were color neutral from the start, or still aren't. I've never heard of someone switching and surpassing their previous times at sub 10, and I think it would've been well enough documented if it had happened multiple times that we would know.

As I said, they're not very specific, but that's a reasonable generalization of how attempts to switch go. It's based on the collective experience of the many people who have tried to switch. His arguments are only based on his own experiences and theory.

I don't think it's easier to get sub 20 on a colour than sub 10 on a colour if you're... 9s when transitioning compared to 18s. I'm sure 18s solvers transitioning average sup 20 with colour neutrality and 9 second solvers average sup 10 with colour neutrality.

Well GJ for missing the point. The point you just made is that a 10s solver will be faster than a 20s solver on the colors they don't normally solve. That's so obvious it should go without saying. Do you really think that's what I meant?

I'm sure 18s solvers transitioning average sup 20 with colour neutrality and 9 second solvers average sup 10 with colour neutrality.

This entire discussion was in the context of whether or not switching at fast speeds was worth it. What you just said supported the idea that it isn't. If you can't surpass your original speed CN, it wasn't worth it. My statement was never "a sub 10 fixed cross solver has never gotten sub 10 CN that we know of." It has been "a sub 10 fixed cross solver has never surpassed his original speed CN that we know of."

 

[frogmanson]

Iirc, Masato Onobe succesfully switched from dual colour neutral to full colour neutral and achieved the same speed he was before; he was sub-9.

 

[MikamiHero]

I think I might take Keaton's advice and just use the time spent trying to practice CN and use it towards improving lookahead and cleaning up my algs.

 

[kcl]

I think I might take Keaton's advice and just use the time spent trying to practice CN and use it towards improving lookahead and cleaning up my algs.

I would agree with this. If you are dual color neutral, IMO that brings you close enough to CN with the benefit of more consistent recognition.

 

[Noahaha]

Trying to become CN is like trying to become ambidextrous.

 

[slinky773]

Trying to become CN is like trying to become ambidextrous.

So... If I can manage to make myself ambidexterous, does that mean that it may be possible to switch to CN and become faster than you were before CN?

Challenge accepted