Will new cubers damage their finger tricks if they use good cubes at first?

[Archangel]

There was a myth saying that if you are not already sub 20(or other versions say sub25, sub30 or even sub15), stay using a cube which is less smooth and has low corner cutting performance, or you will only have a poor use finger trick and always get stuck when executing algs in a faster speed.

 

[AirbusCube]

Sadly, Mythbusters does not exist anymore so we wont get an accurate answer

 

[JimCube]

Haha Airbus! The myth is not true, I used a cheap cube at first and now that i have a speedcube, my finger tricking is still bad. Haha

 

[Xtremecubing]

I don't see any reasons as to why it would result in bad turning later on.

 

[XTowncuber]

I'm gonna be controversial and say maybe or yes. I think using a cube with poor corner cutting can definitely help to improve turn accuracy over a period of time. Try solving on a guhong, you'll lock up like crazy. Then go watch Feliks do a 7.23 ao12 on a guhong and check out the insane turn accuracy.

Obviously I'm just speculating, but those are my observations.

 

[Archangel]

I'm gonna be controversial and say maybe or yes. I think using a cube with poor corner cutting can definitely help to improve turn accuracy over a period of time. Try solving on a guhong, you'll lock up like crazy. Then go watch Feliks do a 7.23 ao12 on a guhong and check out the insane turn accuracy.

Obviously I'm just speculating, but those are my observations.

But why not try to improve turning accuracy by using a 4x4 or 5x5 cube？ This is exactly what I've done and it does have great effect after I used my YueXiao back as my 3x3 main. This is also helpful for your 4x4 or 5x5.

 

[Archangel]

I'm gonna be controversial and say maybe or yes. I think using a cube with poor corner cutting can definitely help to improve turn accuracy over a period of time. Try solving on a guhong, you'll lock up like crazy. Then go watch Feliks do a 7.23 ao12 on a guhong and check out the insane turn accuracy.

Obviously I'm just speculating, but those are my observations.

But when I practiced 4x4 and 5x5 I did not stop practicing my 3x3, and I used Yuexiao after Sub60. Now I'm nearly sub 15 and I can still execute algs in a decent speed. I have not memorized all OLLs yet.

 

[mafergut]

I'm gonna be controversial and say maybe or yes. I think using a cube with poor corner cutting can definitely help to improve turn accuracy over a period of time. Try solving on a guhong, you'll lock up like crazy. Then go watch Feliks do a 7.23 ao12 on a guhong and check out the insane turn accuracy.

Obviously I'm just speculating, but those are my observations.

How could I disagree with a top speedcuber? But I am going to... just sort of.

I agree that training with worse cubes (Guhong, even a Rubik's brand) can help you be more accurate but, will that be helpful to be faster with a better cube? Only slightly, I'd say. In the end your turning style has to adapt to the cube you're using or else Feliks could not be faster with a Gans 356 than with the Guhong, if he's just turning with the same level of accuracy and not taking advantage of the improved corner cutting and flexibility of the Gans.

So, will it be more difficult for somebody that has never used other cube than a Yuexiao or Weilong GTS to get good times with a Guhong, sure, but I think he/she would get used to it and would adapt their turning style. I mean, it's not like you will spoil your turning style and will never be able to fix it. So, in summary, I agree with you but coming back to the title of the thread, I disagree that there will be any permanent damage.

I also agree that big cube practice can help with accuracy but it's a completely different muscle memory because of the different size of the cube and the outer layers so maybe the help comes the other way around, a Guhong can help you be more accurate from the beginning with a 4x4 but maybe not the other way around? Just guessing here.

I am a patzer with either a good or a bad cube but I have used a YJ Chilong as main for more than a year. Probably not as difficult as a Guhong but ages away of latest cubes, for sure. I also enjoy solving at times an old Rubik's brand with 0 corner cutting and I'm still trying to get sub-20 with it. But I do this for fun, not because I think it will significantly help my turning style.

By the way, I hate how most modern cubes with squared-off corners catch at times, by the way, if you are not careful e.g. when right thumb pushing F' like at the end of T or Y perms.

EDIT: Drew, you just made me want to buy a Guhong. Are any other old Dayans worth a try? Not as speedcubing main, just as a collectible but one that's usable as well, not just to show it on a shelf. I mean the LunHui and others (I already have 3 Zhanchis).

 

[xchippy]

I think if you train with a cube that will allow low accuracy turns, then what is the problem with low accuracy since he cube will allow it?

 

[XTowncuber]

How could I disagree with a top speedcuber? But I am going to... just sort of.

I agree that training with worse cubes (Guhong, even a Rubik's brand) can help you be more accurate but, will that be helpful to be faster with a better cube? Only slightly, I'd say. In the end your turning style has to adapt to the cube you're using or else Feliks could not be faster with a Gans 356 than with the Guhong, if he's just turning with the same level of accuracy and not taking advantage of the improved corner cutting and flexibility of the Gans.

So, will it be more difficult for somebody that has never used other cube than a Yuexiao or Weilong GTS to get good times with a Guhong, sure, but I think he/she would get used to it and would adapt their turning style. I mean, it's not like you will spoil your turning style and will never be able to fix it. So, in summary, I agree with you but coming back to the title of the thread, I disagree that there will be any permanent damage.

I also agree that big cube practice can help with accuracy but it's a completely different muscle memory because of the different size of the cube and the outer layers so maybe the help comes the other way around, a Guhong can help you be more accurate from the beginning with a 4x4 but maybe not the other way around? Just guessing here.

I am a patzer with either a good or a bad cube but I have used a YJ Chilong as main for more than a year. Probably not as difficult as a Guhong but ages away of latest cubes, for sure. I also enjoy solving at times an old Rubik's brand with 0 corner cutting and I'm still trying to get sub-20 with it. But I do this for fun, not because I think it will significantly help my turning style.

By the way, I hate how most modern cubes with squared-off corners catch at times, by the way, if you are not careful e.g. when right thumb pushing F' like at the end of T or Y perms.

EDIT: Drew, you just made me want to buy a Guhong. Are any other old Dayans worth a try? Not as speedcubing main, just as a collectible but one that's usable as well, not just to show it on a shelf. I mean the LunHui and others (I already have 3 Zhanchis).

I see your point, but I speak strictly about myself, when I have a cube that handles inaccurate turning well, I take advantage of it too much and and start to get just a few lockups again. I've been trying recently to use some older cubes to help hit that sweet spot of relatively accurate turning combined with a cube with good corner cutting.

You're right though, permanent damage is not what I would call it.

Every collection needs a Guhong IMO. It was such an influential cube, and the feeling is still really nice. Personally I like the v1 better, it's just so classic. I have a LingYun v2 also and it's not really worth the buy. It's just not a really interesting cube. Like a really fast Guhong. Haven't had a LunHui in years, but my memories aren't super fond.

 

[GenTheSnail]

Speaking from my own experience, I actually had a rubik's brand speedcube (adjustable kind) and, as I'm sure you all know, it had awful corner cutting.
I used it for several months, august to march and got to around a 21s average and 15s single. I went to a competition and used it there, and was really annoyed when every one told me that my cube sucked. I tried other peoples cubes and, they were nicer, but not so much better that warranted hating on my cube.
I then got an aolong, and instantly switched.
Blah, blah, blah, I have a thunderclap, switched to ZZ am sub-20 and have pretty good accuracy. I taught my little brother how to solve a cube, and while he is still around a minute, he can do sexy*6 pretty fast.
But, as he never had a rubik's brand with awful corner cutting (he also has a thunderclap), his turning is much sloppier than mine and his cube seems to grind together because of this rougher turning style.
There are so many variables as to why the worse turning, but I have to assume that some part of it is due to having a good cube from the start.
I've never had a Guhong before as I am quite new to cubing, so I can't comment in that area. However, I will say that a first cube with bad corner cutting definitely helps along the road.
So: Yes.

 

[mafergut]

@XTowncuber so it looks like we more or less agree in the end, about the permanent damage thing
Now that you mention it, it happens to me that when I change from one cube to another, while I try to adapt to the new one I am probably more careful and accurate, hence my times are usually better, as my TPS is a bit slower but the solve is more fluid. That also used to be what I called the "new cube effect", getting a PB single the day I bought a new cube. As soon as I get used to the cube I start to push the limits a bit more and, yeah, as you say, I start to lock up. That's why I like to change cubes from time to time and, in particular going back to my old cubes (Zhanchi and Chilong).

Thank you for the suggestions on old Dayans. I think I will try to include a Guhong on my next order.

@GenTheThief I still think your little brother would be perfectly able to adapt to a worse cube if he wanted / needed to. Regarding whether this helps or not, probably yes, like we have discussed for big cubes, etc. My reasoning was around the "permanent damage" thing. In fact I think young people are much more able to adapt than old dogs like myself so if I can adapt your brother can too, and faster. Just challenge him to get sub-X on your old Rubik's and tell me what happens

 

[AlphaSheep]

It's impossible to fingertrick a bad cube and you're better off tightening your cube to reduce corner cutting, or using a 5x5 or bigger to train accuracy than wasting money on a bad cube (I don't consider a Guhong a bad cube though)

I have several bad habits from using an old rubik's brand for many years, and I know of people with wrist injuries from really bad cubes, so I can confidently say that you can definitely mess up your fingertricks by using a really bad cube.

That said, I'm not sure any bad fingertricks are ever permanent (whether you picked them up on good or bad cubes). You can always change your fingertricks with determination and practice.

 

[jaredye]

This topic has been extensively discussed in Chinese forums. From my understanding the consensus is that there is no need to start using a bad cube as a beginner. There is also little use to practice your precision using bigger cubes (4x4-7x7), since the mechanism of turning and the position you hold the cube are very different.

To quote the designer of Yuexiao, he said the corner cutting of cubes are created for you to be able to turn faces without completely aligning the other faces. If you don't make use of corner cutting by practicing on a bad cube, you won't be able to exploit the full potential of a good cube when you switch to the good one. He personally feels that practicing on a bad cube is a waster of time. (Apparently there is a conflict of interest here as he wants to sell more of his cube. So you can just take if with a grain of salt.)

 

[Malkom]

How long would you have to use a "bad" cube before switching to a better cube? I used a nobrand cube for 2 months and then got a Rubiks speedcube which I used for about 4 months and then got a tanglong. I've been cubing for almost a year and think my turning is pretty meh, should I go back to the Rubiks brand or just continue with my Yuexiao?

 

[Chree]

How long would you have to use a "bad" cube before switching to a better cube? I used a nobrand cube for 2 months and then got a Rubiks speedcube which I used for about 4 months and then got a tanglong. I've been cubing for almost a year and think my turning is pretty meh, should I go back to the Rubiks brand or just continue with my Yuexiao?

If your turning is 'meh', then try doing some deliberate practice on just turning. Pick out the kinds of moves you aren't satisfied with and start practicing something better. But you don't have to go back to a inferior cube to accomplish this.

 

[shadowslice e]

This topic has been extensively discussed in Chinese forums.

Oh cool what other stuff to they discuss more in depth than over here?

To quote the designer of Yuexiao, he said the corner cutting of cubes are created for you to be able to turn faces without completely aligning the other faces. If you don't make use of corner cutting by practicing on a bad cube, you won't be able to exploit the full potential of a good cube when you switch to the good one. He personally feels that practicing on a bad cube is a waster of time. (Apparently there is a conflict of interest here as he wants to sell more of his cube. So you can just take if with a grain of salt.)

I think he is definately being biased there...

My personal opinion on Corner Cutting is that you shouldn't try to take advantage of it by always turning fully at the limits of the corner ability and simply rely on it if you are turning quickly so you don't have to compensate and have something else to worry about.

 

[jaredye]

Oh cool what other stuff to they discuss more in depth than over here?

Maybe not more in depth, but since there's much large community in China (given the population of China) there are tons of more replies. I'll list some of the thoughts here:

1. You turn less precisely with good cube but so what? If you can still execute an alg very fast, what's the merit of turning very precisely?
2. If you practice with a bad cube you get used to turning precisely on a bad cube. It doesn't mean you can turn a good cube precisely. Getting used to a good cube takes time as well. So the time spent learning to turn precisely on a bad cube might not be worth it after all. Plus you can try to learn turning precisely on a good cube.
3. Bad cube is useful to identify where you can improve. Good cubes will allow you to gloss over some worse part of your fingertricks. When using a bad cube, those problems will cause you much more time so you'll notice and understand what is wrong with your fingertrick.
4. Is the proponent of this idea the manufacturer (read Dayan) of outdated cubes so they can get rid of their stocks?
5. Your goal is to have highest TPS. If you have perfect technique to maximize your TPS on a bad cube, such techniques doesn't necessarily maximize your TPS on a good cube because you're not exploiting the corner cutting abilities. For example in the MU version of U perm, you use a reverse stroke to do M. That is usually slower than the U turn which follows M (because your index finger is stronger and at a better angle to turn). Why don't you make the U turn earlier and use the corner cutting to finish off the last 30 degrees of M?

 

[deadcat]

since there's much large community in China (given the population of China)

That's very interesting! Although I wonder why there are fewer Chinese with WCA ranking compared to, say, USA (7k vs 10k).