WCA Regulations 2012

[Mike Hughey]

@Bob: This is a terrible attitude! You should always check passport/id-cards (which also give information about nationality) of newcomers to make sure, they are registered correctly. The are supposed to have this with them, as it is clearly within the WCA regs.

I realize this is generally not too difficult in Europe, but this can be quite challenging in the USA. For one thing, we tend to have many people here who have never owned a passport, and driver's licenses generally don't show nationality. I suppose birth certificates are an option, but they are difficult to carry around and often not easily accessible for the competitor, and of course they don't have a picture. For another thing, we have many competitors who are very young (I'd say the median age at Dixon last weekend was probably 14 or 15 - have to go with median instead of average because I would skew the average so much!), so there we must rely on parents to show identification, and they often do not have any form of identification other than birth certificate, which won't have a picture to verify that they're the person being checked.

 

[Hippolyte!!!]

I totally agree with Sebastien concerning the nationality definition, and reading that people could register with a nationality they haven't (if they can have it, see my last point) surprised me.
But contrary to you, and even after reading that, I'm still again passport checking. I will always want competition with a friendly ambience, and can't imagine myself asking an identity paper, whatever it could be.
For me, this is for official things, and I don't want to doubt of everyone. I assume that everyone is honest, and unless something is really weird, I prefer having a few liars in the database than annoying evryone at a competition. In fact, I never see someone asking an ID at a cube competition. Besides, and as you've already point out, few people always have ID with them, and passport aren't needed to travel in the european union.
So if a delegate want to ask a passport at a competition I organize, I can't tell anything, but I would never do it. Moreover, as you allude there's a problem concerning undocumended people. That's different to have moving like WTF2L, and it involve political opionions that I will not expose here, but that's another argument for me to not ask passport.

 

[Vincents]

I could be totally wrong, but I don't think you can get a driver's license unless you have a SSN, which would mean that if you have a driver's license, that makes you a US citizen, permanent resident, or temporary working resident.

Also, out here in California we tend only to check for new competitors. After we've verified you for the first time, we only ask you bring ID again if you are changing nationalities.

 

[Mike Hughey]

I could be totally wrong, but I don't think you can get a driver's license unless you have a SSN, which would mean that if you have a driver's license, that makes you a US citizen, permanent resident, or temporary working resident.

Right, but that means many people with licenses are not citizens, and apparently citizenship is being equated to nationality, so a driver's license really doesn't tell you anything. And well over half of our 48 competitors at our most recent competition didn't have a driver's license, since they were too young.

 

[Yuxuibbs]

Does permanent resident or living in the country for almost your whole life count as nationality?

 

[Sebastien]

depends on how nationality is defined. If you read the last couple of posts you will see that this is currently the question...

 

[DrKorbin]

I'm still again passport checking.

I guess you mean you're against passport checking?
This is the only way for organizers to make sure that a competitor is not banned on WCA. If I am banned then I can attend a competition from another country where no one knows me, being registered under the false name.

 

[Bryan]

We shouldn't have to rewrite every regulation to cover every possible disability or unusual circumstance. In cases like these we rely on the judge/delegate's reasonable judgement.

Also, such instances are probably noted in the delegate's report to the WCA board, so if the WCA board doesn't agree with how it was handled, they can provide feedback for the next time. If they really don't agree, they could invalidate the results, but I doubt a delegate would come up with a solution so bad that it would happen.

I could be totally wrong, but I don't think you can get a driver's license unless you have a SSN, which would mean that if you have a driver's license, that makes you a US citizen, permanent resident, or temporary working resident.

If you are going to reside in the U.S., you can get a U.S. driver's license once you are in the U.S., but it may take several months to obtain a U.S. driver's license.

A lot of foreign exchange students will get their driver's license when they come to the US because it saves them thousands of dollars getting it in Europe.

 

[Hippolyte!!!]

I guess you mean you're against passport checking?

Yes, sorry for that.:fp

This is the only way for organizers to make sure that a competitor is not banned on WCA. If I am banned then I can attend a competition from another country where no one knows me, being registered under the false name.

WCA bans are not so frequent. I don't think that your example is very likely. And a good competitor will be recognized. Maybe I'm too optimistic.

 

[Bob]

So, even if someone declares him/herself as a citizen of another country than the USA on the registration form, you will still register him on the WCA database as USA if he can't show a passport? (assuming it's his/her first competition and doesn't have a WCA profile yet(

Yes.

@Sebastien: I think it is much more likely in Europe that people have such identification than in the USA. My brother is 24 and still does not have a passport. The only ID cards that are common here are drivers licenses, but not even everybody has one of those. Especially, think about this. About half of all competitors are children with no identification at all. How would you verify citizenship for them? Should we require that they present a birth certificate?

Please understand that at USA competitions, ALMOST ALL competitors are US citizens. It is much less common for competitors to travel from other countries than it would be for a European competition, for example. It makes a lot of sense to do so in Europe, but here I do not think it is as necessary and more often just a waste of time.

Whoops! I didn't see that there were more replies after yours on a different page. I think this was already addressed.

 

[Sebastien]

Yes...thanks for clarifying that kind of situation because I couldn't imagine it was like this. :S

 

[cubernya]

Yes.

@Sebastien: I think it is much more likely in Europe that people have such identification than in the USA. My brother is 24 and still does not have a passport. The only ID cards that are common here are drivers licenses, but not even everybody has one of those. Especially, think about this. About half of all competitors are children with no identification at all. How would you verify citizenship for them? Should we require that they present a birth certificate?

Please understand that at USA competitions, ALMOST ALL competitors are US citizens. It is much less common for competitors to travel from other countries than it would be for a European competition, for example. It makes a lot of sense to do so in Europe, but here I do not think it is as necessary and more often just a waste of time.

Whoops! I didn't see that there were more replies after yours on a different page. I think this was already addressed.

Bob: Do you require proof of citizenship/nationality if they say that they are from Canada? Just wondering, especially considering the significant number of Canadians at northeast competitions

 

[shelley]

Please understand that at USA competitions, ALMOST ALL competitors are US citizens. It is much less common for competitors to travel from other countries than it would be for a European competition, for example. It makes a lot of sense to do so in Europe, but here I do not think it is as necessary and more often just a waste of time.

It should also be mentioned that honestly, the only negative result of someone lying about his nationality would be getting an easy NR that he doesn't deserve. Nobody's going to falsely claim US citizenship to get an easy NR.

 

[Bob]

Bob: Do you require proof of citizenship/nationality if they say that they are from Canada? Just wondering, especially considering the significant number of Canadians at northeast competitions

If they've never competed before, sure. If they are a Canadian citizen, they should have some proof of this anyway. You need a passport to cross the border now, don't you?

 

[cubernya]

If they've never competed before, sure. If they are a Canadian citizen, they should have some proof of this anyway. You need a passport to cross the border now, don't you?

No, actually, you don't. According to the US, all you need is a birth certificate (just an example, you could have some thing else) if you are a minor. Then we come to the problem of not having identification because they are a minor. As others have brought up, there's no way to know if a birth certificate is valid or not, so that gets nowhere

 

[vcuber13]

but i would assume a parent or guardian would accompany a minor to another country, and they would need a passport. i think it can be assumed that if the parent or guardian have a canadian passport the minor is a resident of canada

 

[Bob]

LOL ok so there is an exception is for minors? Are minors without passports permitted to cross without a parent/guardian?

 

[cubernya]

but i would assume a parent or guardian would accompany a minor to another country, and they would need a passport. i think it can be assumed that if the parent or guardian have a canadian passport the minor is a resident of canada

Again, not necessarily true. There are other travel documents that are valid, some of which don't even have photos on it (IIRC). Plus, what if the guardian is not part of their family (which is legal even if crossing borders). Then you have no proof that the competitor has citizenship, only that the non-relative has citizenship.

 

[Bob]

Again, not necessarily true. There are other travel documents that are valid, some of which don't even have photos on it (IIRC). Plus, what if the guardian is not part of their family (which is legal even if crossing borders). Then you have no proof that the competitor has citizenship, only that the non-relative has citizenship.

At this point, the situation is just getting ridiculous. If you'd like, I'll admit defeat:

If there is a competitor signed up for a competition I'm delegating that has never competed before and is a minor and has crossed into the United States from Canada but does not possess a passport, but instead another travel document that does not have a photo on it, and is accompanied by a non-relative guardian, then I cannot verify his/her citizenship.

 

[cubernya]

the situation is just getting ridiculous.

Not really. To be completely honest, I've crossed the Canadian border (from the US, not Canada) with another person's family. It really isn't that complicated, but there has to be a definitive way in the regs to get around this sort of stuff. One option is simple changing must to should.