[WCA Regulations 2012] Proposed New Event: Team BLD

[PandaCuber]

I think it would be better if the judge brought a black sheet of paper and he/she puts it under the blindfold, that way there is no problem with the caller and the paper.

 

[Erik]

Pedro, I am very sure that saying y is faster than walking to the other side of the solver...

 

[RyanReese09]

Pedro, I am very sure that saying y is faster than walking to the other side of the solver...

No offense but that doesn't quite address the issue. I agree with you that it is faster to do y or whatever, but are we going to force them to do this instead of moving around?

Yeah I agree, i was just trying to work out this bit that ryan posted:

Yeeah I really just posted that part to see if people could expand upon the idea. I could come up with nothing but perhaps someone had a cool idea

Ryan: the caller touching the solver would generally not be a problem. Think about cool systems where a tap on the right shoulder would mean a RUR' trick and the left shoulder would be L'U'L! But ya I agree with you that touching the hands would be a bit too much, so, I guess that is a good boundary. Its easy to determine the different between hand and arm.

Maelstrom: I think its quite logical that you get the highest score? Like in my example, Arnaud would have a best time of 40 seconds while Stefan only has a best time of 45 seconds.

Soulseeker: that is very original! Personally I don't like it if this would be allowed, but I can't find a reason to not allow it.

Heh I was actually thinking about touching people to signify moves. That would be very cool and would avoid awkward tongue-tying moments where you're trying to spit out words.

And as an added bonus it would remove noise as a possible issue, which I doubt would even happen (a lot of people would have to be loud...I can comfortably talk to my judges when I'm about to solve/after I've solved, and others are talking all around.)

 

[Cheese11]

Pedro, I am very sure that saying y is faster than walking to the other side of the solver...

What if you are doing Roux? Which doesn't use rotations?

 

[TMOY]

What if you are doing Roux? Which doesn't use rotations?

The fact that rotations are not needed in a Roux solve doesn't imply that they are forbidden.

 

[SoulSeeker]

Heh I was actually thinking about touching people to signify moves. That would be very cool and would avoid awkward tongue-tying moments where you're trying to spit out words.

And as an added bonus it would remove noise as a possible issue, which I doubt would even happen (a lot of people would have to be loud...I can comfortably talk to my judges when I'm about to solve/after I've solved, and others are talking all around.)

this could lead to a complete touch oriented way of solving. for example right shoulder is U left shoulder is U' Right arm is R right forearm R' right shoulderblade is right insert etc etc.. i dunno if this would be practical but maybe with a lot of training..

and even though it is not the originally intended way of "teambld" it still is a valid one. as erik said, the restictions are not seeing the cube by one person and not touching the cube by the other person.

 

[Erik]

Isn't that the beauty of it? You can come up with so many original ways to communicate!

 

[DaKrazedKyubizt]

I would merely like to say that this thread makes me so happy. I've been waiting for this event to be proposed. But I was also wondering about how to post the records.... but it seems like you guys are figuring that out, so I guess I'll leave it be...

Anyway, again, I'm very happy about this thread. I will definitely participate. If it's done in competitions by April, we will definitely try to have it added to the Cornell Spring competition.

 

[amostay2004]

I think if this were made official, there will eventually be a standardized method to communicate that everyone uses. That will make it easier for people to switch partners all the time.

 

[whauk]

this has already been done more than two years ago so the idea is not that new: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fog9nY3aDNM

i dont like the idea of having every achieved time twice in the rankings. that would definitely lead to some confusion. (also considering noobs taking a look into the database) i believe its very easy to take out the second half of the results. you could arrange the names alphabetically to decide between the results. ("1. stefan arnaud" will be thrown out and "1. arnaud stefan" should stay)

the judge should still never prevent the caller to take a certain view on the cube. but i also dont know a solution to this problem.

also i think the caller should be allowed to touch the cube during inspection. just because it is much easier then (imagine the blind person dont finding the cube when inspection time already started)

 

[hcfong]

In terms of what the caller is allowed to say to the solver, do you think there should be any limits to the information he can give? For example, should the caller only be allowed to call out separate moves, like R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' F', or should it be okay to just say "T-perm!"

 

[Ilkyoo Choi]

These regulations can, and will, then be field tested at the Berkeley Winter competition (and possibly others, if organizers are interested).[/B]

I do not see Berkeley Winter announced yet. When will this be?

I am willing to host team BLD in the competitions in Korea that I am hosting. The two competitions in 2012 are fairly early in the year, namely January 7th and January 15th, but if there are solid regulations by then I am willing to host the events.

 

[Hippolyte!!!]

Pedro, I am very sure that saying y is faster than walking to the other side of the solver...

I'm not this sure... I practice often team blind with Antoine Piau, and we often move around the solver. And like Ryan said, it can't be a reason to forbidd.

In terms of what the caller is allowed to say to the solver, do you think there should be any limits to the information he can give? For example, should the caller only be allowed to call out separate moves, like R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' F', or should it be okay to just say "T-perm!"

Of course he could said as short as he can, and he must if he want to go fast.

And there is a other point you doesn't spoke about, thats about the instructions during the inspection. We always wait the stack beginning to start telling instructions. During the inspection, the caller just repear the cross, or what he can, and memorize it until the starting. What do you think about this way? (sorry for my english)

 

[Erik]

Pedro and others: You do need the judge to be there, standing on one side of the solver is the position he/she is hindering the least. If you are smart (just do a y rotation) you can work around this without letting it be a problem in the first place. If you know a better way please write it here.
You can ask the judge to be left or right whatever you like and just deal with it. What is not clear to me is what your opinion about team BLD is? Do you like it or dont you like it? Do you think this 'problem' (imho not a real problem) is so troublesome it makes team BLD impossible?

 

[Julian]

Why would we forbid the caller from touching the cube during inspection?

On the judge getting in the way: if the team provides their own black paper, the judge moves aside, otherwise, the team deals with the judge?

On the WCA database: I think on individual profiles it should just say the best time, and the partner's name (and maybe the roles). On the leaderboard I'm not sure, what if someone got good times with 3 different people, would all 3 results show?

I, personally, am very enthusiastic about teamBLD as an event I hope it becomes one someday.

And there is a other point you doesn't spoke about, thats about the instructions during the inspection. We always wait the stack beginning to start telling instructions. During the inspection, the caller just repear the cross, or what he can, and memorize it until the starting. What do you think about this way? (sorry for my english)

No, it should definitely be that the team is given 15 seconds inspection to plan whatever they want.

 

[RNewms27]

Though team bld does not fit well with the current categories, If it were to be established, there definitely should be caller and solver categories. They are completely different positions.

 

[kinch2002]

I have a problem with this that I don't think has been addressed yet. A good ranking requires 2 people. I see a big disadvantage for people who don't have any fast friends - I'd be really annoyed if I was in that position. Also, it will get annoying when all the noobs are begging the pros to be their partner (sorry if I cause offense by the way I phrased this post - I'm trying to get the point across).

If it does get made official, I propose that on someone's profile it is placed in a separate list to the other events at the top of the page. In other sports, you'd generally consider 'doubles' events differently to 'singles' events.

 

[Dene]

I have a problem with this that I don't think has been addressed yet. A good ranking requires 2 people. I see a big disadvantage for people who don't have any fast friends - I'd be really annoyed if I was in that position. Also, it will get annoying when all the noobs are begging the pros to be their partner (sorry if I cause offense by the way I phrased this post - I'm trying to get the point across).

Heh it's funny, I've seen you around the forums tons, and I spent a fair amount of time talking to you at WCs, but I never realised you were you until just now .

To respond to your point, I don't see how there is any problem. If you can't find a good partner then that is too bad. You don't have to pair with anyone if you don't want to. So no issues.


My own view: I am against teamBLD. I can't see any single issue that would outright screw this event up, making it impossible to regulate, but I still believe that it wouldn't be long before some really big problems arise, and the event would have to be removed. I agree that it would be impossible to regulate the sound, and other competitors would be able to hear things that would give them an advantage that others don't have. This is clearly creating unfair solving conditions between competitors. I'll think about this more when I'm less tired, but I mainly wanted to make my stance clear seeing as there don't seem to be any people objecting to it.

 

[blakedacuber]

just something aswell.... would you be allowed to compete in as many different teams as you want or must you have the same partner for each year?

 

[RyanReese09]

Right now I'm for team bld, but I would NOT like it to become official until everything is worked out. Undercooked chicken is dangerous!

Daniel, that's a very good point about noobs and their friends. However I don't believe great speed is needed here. For the most part, all the solutions will be burst turning for the most part...for most people. Unless they have great lookahead (hard due to solvers hands in way)

I may have missed this, but why can't the judge just sit on one side of the table, and the people be on the other side?