Tell'em About Jesus!

[PatrickJameson]

Um. This is not undisputed proof. I mean undisputed as in everyone knows what you believe is true. If your God wanted everyone to worship Him, it shouldn't be that difficult for Him to prove it, right?

Alright, if God said to you, I Am here. What would you do? Instantly serve Him right? Why? Because in that scenario, you don't have a choice, now that He has shown you He exists.

By Him not doing that, and instead giving you the choice to believe the internally consistent, historically-accurate Bible, or whatever you want to believe, He is giving you a choice. That, my fellow interweber, is the concept of free will. What you do with it determines your eternity.

That doesn't seem very fair :/. It's not my fault I can't believe in Him, and I don't think pretending to believe in Him counts.

Also, why is He bothering doing this? I don't see the gain in having some people believe and some people not believe. What's the point of free will in this case if it is fact, not opinion?

Also, there have been massive wars over this. I can't see the God you are worshiping just letting this happen without doing much about it.

 

[Zeroknight]

Um. This is not undisputed proof. I mean undisputed as in everyone knows what you believe is true. If your God wanted everyone to worship Him, it shouldn't be that difficult for Him to prove it, right?

Alright, if God said to you, I Am here. What would you do? Instantly serve Him right? Why? Because in that scenario, you don't have a choice, now that He has shown you He exists.

By Him not doing that, and instead giving you the choice to believe the internally consistent, historically-accurate Bible, or whatever you want to believe, He is giving you a choice. That, my fellow interweber, is the concept of free will. What you do with it determines your eternity.

That doesn't seem very fair :/. It's not my fault I can't believe in Him, and I don't think pretending to believe in Him counts.

Also, why is He bothering doing this? I don't see the gain in having some people believe and some people not believe. What's the point of free will in this case if it is fact, not opinion?

Also, there have been massive wars over this. I can't see the God you are worshiping just letting this happen without doing much about it.

It's not always fair, but then again, fairness does not equate justice. God is just, He doesn't need to be 'fair' as fairness is subjective, and justice is objective.

He does this not for His gain. He does this for our gain. It's hard to understand, but we are given a choice. We are presented with both sides, and it up to each one of us individually, to decide what we want to do. Our gain from this is the most earth-shattering decision of all. We get to chose what we want to gain eternally (sorry if that doesn't make sense).

There have been wars about this, yes. Someone once said that life is an experiment. God is letting man rule themselves (because they wanted that), with minimum intervention from Him (except for those who believe) so that man can see how well he has done for himself. During the Millennial Kingdom (Doctrine of Eschatology, but for now, it simply means God will rule the earth for 1000 years), however, God will show us how well He can rule over man.

 

[waffle=ijm]

I knew there was a reason I didn't want to read this thread...but is the only thread that's not bold on the homepage and I keep clicking it to it goes away.

Anywho. Nice to see that there's not a lot of rude posts being flown around on such a debatable topic.

 

[Lofty]

Ok, This is my last post here for a while. I'm going home for the weekend so I'll see if I have time to say anything.
First thanks for the help in defending my beliefs Ethan. We made is so far without any flaming. Lets not acknowledge it enough to let it continue.
As for Patrick Jameson I'll just give you my theological opinion and hope that suffices. I will try to dissent as little as possible with Zeroknight but I will say that I have different theological views regarding freewill and they may or may not come up.
I like numbers
1.) The whole concept of fair and good change when you look at things from the perspective of God being most important and not man. If humanism is rejected and God exists to make His glory maximally known among creation and not just make man happy that changes things. To quote Paris Reidhead "doesn't God intend to make man happy? yes, but as a byproduct not a prime-product" The prime-product is the glory of God.
2.) There are no good people. All people sin against God and since God is in infinitely important being then there should be an infinite penalty for an offense against him. (Think offense against an ant vs a dog vs a human. No one cares if you harm an ant, you can be incarcerated for killing dogs and you can be killed for killing humans or at least spend your whole life in jail. So if you go up a step from a human to God the punishment gets worse. I guess killing was a bad example since you can't kill God lol. But you understand my example anyway I'm sure) So if all people are guilty the concept of fair changes. You don't deserve God giving you any chances so be grateful that He has given us what He has.
3.) He could be testing our gullibility but I don't think thats consistent with the rest of God's character so I'll count that option out and hold to my other reasons.
4.) I'm really hoping this thread changes peoples opinions and shows that cubers are nice enough to each other to be able to discuss things like this without flaming.
5.) I don't know how much what I just typed really adds... But it does help you get more in the Christian world view.

 

[Lord Voldemort]

So... God's main purpose is to glorify himself? (From the quote in part 1?)
Why create humans anyway if the only point of doing so is self-glory?

EDIT: Upon reading, I realize I do sort of sound like I'm only asking for the purpose of sounding rude but I do indeed want to know.

 

[PatrickJameson]

He does this not for His gain. He does this for our gain. It's hard to understand, but we are given a choice. We are presented with both sides, and it up to each one of us individually, to decide what we want to do. Our gain from this is the most earth-shattering decision of all. We get to chose what we want to gain eternally (sorry if that doesn't make sense).

What about those who have been born into another religion(or lack thereof) and have never been exposed to Christianity?

 

[Lofty]

He does this not for His gain. He does this for our gain. It's hard to understand, but we are given a choice. We are presented with both sides, and it up to each one of us individually, to decide what we want to do. Our gain from this is the most earth-shattering decision of all. We get to chose what we want to gain eternally (sorry if that doesn't make sense).

What about those who have been born into another religion(or lack thereof) and have never been exposed to Christianity?

Not all of us have such views of free will.

I am of the opinion that if any person genuinely tried to seek the true God themselves then God would send someone to them. And by that I mean admitting that a god must exist due to creation (don't take that word too far it just basically means all the stuff that exists) and try to seek Him and know that as a man you can't match up to God.
Now I'm out forreal...

 

[rachmaninovian]

Personally, this is what I view of religion: you can be given evidence that something is true or not, and you can choose to believe the evidence and accept it or even reject it.
In the society here I live in, we *have* to practice tolerance and accept one another's beliefs. After all, we are at least 4 distinct races, and we have diversely different religious beliefs. I have seen people converting from one faith to another simply because they accept the evidence as provided by a certain faith, and not the evidence of another faith.

For the record, I am a Christian, and since I have close associations with Jews here, I have learned to be more tolerant, and learn about other religions' beliefs? :3

 

[PatrickJameson]

Ok, This is my last post here for a while. I'm going home for the weekend so I'll see if I have time to say anything.
First thanks for the help in defending my beliefs Ethan. We made is so far without any flaming. Lets not acknowledge it enough to let it continue.
As for Patrick Jameson I'll just give you my theological opinion and hope that suffices. I will try to dissent as little as possible with Zeroknight but I will say that I have different theological views regarding freewill and they may or may not come up.
I like numbers
1.) The whole concept of fair and good change when you look at things from the perspective of God being most important and not man. If humanism is rejected and God exists to make His glory maximally known among creation and not just make man happy that changes things. To quote Paris Reidhead "doesn't God intend to make man happy? yes, but as a byproduct not a prime-product" The prime-product is the glory of God.
2.) There are no good people. All people sin against God and since God is in infinitely important being then there should be an infinite penalty for an offense against him. (Think offense against an ant vs a dog vs a human. No one cares if you harm an ant, you can be incarcerated for killing dogs and you can be killed for killing humans or at least spend your whole life in jail. So if you go up a step from a human to God the punishment gets worse. I guess killing was a bad example since you can't kill God lol. But you understand my example anyway I'm sure) So if all people are guilty the concept of fair changes. You don't deserve God giving you any chances so be grateful that He has given us what He has.
3.) He could be testing our gullibility but I don't think thats consistent with the rest of God's character so I'll count that option out and hold to my other reasons.
4.) I'm really hoping this thread changes peoples opinions and shows that cubers are nice enough to each other to be able to discuss things like this without flaming.
5.) I don't know how much what I just typed really adds... But it does help you get more in the Christian world view.

Number 1 was too confusing for me to produce a comment that is good enough for this conversation. :/

2.) Why is God being nice to us if we're the equivalent of ants(or an even lesser example) to humans? To quote a completely horrible source, but which is still kind of relevant, 'God is a mean kid sitting on an ant-hill with a magnifying glass'.

As for number 3, what are you basing the 'character' of God on? He seems like one sly guy to me, basically trying to get people to not believe in him, as I see it.

EDIT:

Not all of us have such views of free will.

I am of the opinion that if any person genuinely tried to seek the true God themselves then God would send someone to them. And by that I mean admitting that a god must exist due to creation (don't take that word too far it just basically means all the stuff that exists) and try to seek Him and know that as a man you can't match up to God.
Now I'm out forreal...

You need to believe in God for him to prove to you that He exists? :|

 

[Zeroknight]

Dang, you guys raise some interesting points, and I really want to comment on them, but sadly, I don't have the time ats (at this second). I'll still be lurking, and if you need something answered urgently, I guess I could, but try not to bother me. haha jk

 

[Lt-UnReaL]

Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.

Can't argue with that.

 

[PatrickJameson]

Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.

Can't argue with that.

That's not even what's being argued.

 

[Escher]

Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.

Can't argue with that.

Seems like it's illogical to be anything other than agnostic then...

 

[Lt-UnReaL]

Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.

Can't argue with that.

That's not even what's being argued.

Heh...I just assumed it was >_>

 

[PatrickJameson]

Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.

Can't argue with that.

Seems like it's illogical to be anything other than agnostic then...

Well this is not true. There are some things on both sides that contradict the other side. Some may call that evidence of their own belief.

 

[elcarc]

Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.

Can't argue with that.

Seems like it's illogical to be anything other than agnostic then...

Well this is not true. There are some things on both sides that contradict the other side. Some may call that evidence of their own belief.

Did you realize that everyone in the bible with your kind of attitude died, or lived horribly. I'm just saying, its faith. If right now, a meteor storm hit my neighborhood, and i was the only one not hit, faith would lead me to believe God kept those meteors away. Ill edit the post later when I'm not mad, because I don't want to start an argument with anyone in this thread.

 

[Escher]

Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.

Can't argue with that.

Seems like it's illogical to be anything other than agnostic then...

Well this is not true. There are some things on both sides that contradict the other side. Some may call that evidence of their own belief.

I'm not sure if I understood exactly what you mean...
My understanding of the arguments on both sides generally result in finding that there is not a difference in the actual hard things that are being discussed but the interpretations of them; and interpretations alone aren't proof/evidence.
Though I may've misunderstood you.

 

[PatrickJameson]

Well this is not true. There are some things on both sides that contradict the other side. Some may call that evidence of their own belief.

Did you realize that everyone in the bible with your kind of attitude died, or lived horribly. I'm just saying, its faith. If right now, a meteor storm hit my neighborhood, and i was the only one not hit, faith would lead me to believe God kept those meteors away. Ill edit the post later when I'm not mad, because I don't want to start an argument with anyone in this thread.

What attitude are you talking about? :|

 

[Ethan Rosen]

Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.

Can't argue with that.

Seems like it's illogical to be anything other than agnostic then...

Well this is not true. There are some things on both sides that contradict the other side. Some may call that evidence of their own belief.

Did you realize that everyone in the bible with your kind of attitude died, or lived horribly. I'm just saying, its faith. If right now, a meteor storm hit my neighborhood, and i was the only one not hit, faith would lead me to believe God kept those meteors away. Ill edit the post later when I'm not mad, because I don't want to start an argument with anyone in this thread.

When a meteor shower hits your neighborhood and only you survive, please post here. I wold very gladly believe that you had some sort of divine help. For now though, I'm fine believing that there is no god.

 

[Daniel Wu]

Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.

Can't argue with that.

Faith is called faith for a reason.