Older cubers discussions

[40yearstosolve]

@40yearstosolve did you watch the video I posted? Pglewis suggested JPerm's F2L video. You can always watch more videos to get new views on the subject. Maybe some explanations work better for you than others.

You will get very fast with it if you keep practicing. In the beginning it seems like a lot to digest, and you will keep making mistakes. Just go slowly at first and try to see how the pieces move on the cube. Once it clicks, you will notice how those F2L pairs starts falling into place with ease.

Ahh sorry Jan it was your post with the YouTube link. I did watch it and it scrambled my head. I will watch again. And again heh it makes sense but I feel I need a cheat sheet which I am attempting to create now. I get the logic, I just seen to be trying any and all combinations until I have the pairs the correct way around. It’s tough isn’t it. But I totally get how it will save a bunch of time because the old way of doing the corners and then to two layers even now when I can’t successfully carry out F2L seems so slow and long-winded.

I think I forgot to post the link to the chap I found...

 

[40yearstosolve]

@40yearstosolve : There's endless debate about algorithmic versus intuitive F2L, but in reality it's not black and white and the end goal is the same. There's nothing wrong with figuring out an intuitive solution then forgetting how it works and executing it from muscle memory for the rest of your life. And there's nothing wrong with finding a cool alg then studying how it works and applying its elements intuitively to your solutions. Ultimately though, you need to be knowledgeable and flexible so that you can choose the best pairs and solutions in each case and solve to different slots without wasting moves or rotations.

For me, getting good at F2L was a mixture of approaches, depending on what I was enjoying most. It just takes time. Keep at it!

Cheers Mark. I feel I have ‘found it’ (thanks to you guys) at the right time. Otherwise I would have gone on my holidays practicing my current longer technique and only really got faster due to attrition rather than technique. I have nearly two months to learn iF2L* and then my entire holiday to perfect it

*heh I hope calling it iF2L is allowed!!!

 

[40yearstosolve]

@40yearstosolve

My take on the word intuitive is that once you've grasped the basics you can figure out decent solutions for yourself. I remember some cases being hard to figure out but with a bit of trial and error you eventually stumble upon a good solution and through repetition it eventually becomes automatic.

I suggest you put the timer away when learning F2L as it means nothing until you are comfortable with the new approach. It will more than likely double your times to begin with (or worse) but it really is the way forward. It reduces the number of mini-steps in your solve and is far more enjoyable than the robotic beginner method.

I'd thoroughly recommend Feliks' website for beginners through to advanced cubers. Check out the F2L section:

https://www.cubeskills.com/tutorials/f2l

Thanks for that will have a look. And yep no timer, I am still learning so it takes me around 15 minutes to solve iF2L. I dislike it at the moment because I end up in a bad mood due to the frustration!!! For the first time last night I threw my cube across the room!!!

 

[40yearstosolve]

Thanks for that will have a look. And yep no timer, I am still learning so it takes me around 15 minutes to solve iF2L. I dislike it at the moment because I end up in a bad mood due to the frustration!!! For the first time last night I threw my cube across the room!!!

What a difference a day makes!

Having already learned to listen to the advice of forum members here, I just spent the morning practising iF2L.

And wow!

The word ‘intuitive’ is indeed used for a very good reason.

If I have understood correctly, there are three key scenarios, which is simplifying it greatly - but if you act intuitively (read: logically) using these three scarnarios you can solve every situation.

1. White facing upwards.
2. Order incorrect (non-white is first).
3. Opposite colours racing up.

This is why it’s so hard to find a cheatsheet or explanation. Because in the case of iF2L you must first get a grip of its fundamental idea involving the pairs and slots.

Once you have understood that, the three scenarios I talk of will help you apply that fundamental into solving each pair.

It’s unlike any other principle of cubing I have found so far because a lot of it relies on you being intuitive. Unless here are some people that remember all the algos but wow that would hurt my head.

I am already quicker, less angry and able to write down a cribsheet for myself :-D ..but the crib is only in my language.. to attempt to create one for someone else to read is nigh on impossible because you need to understand the principles first.

I type this for myself, and in the interests of thanking you lovely lot for the help

Now I just need to speed it up.

Will be interesting to time myself now and in a week’s time.

PS: Apologies for using iF2L, it was quicker to write than Intuitive F2L each time :-/

 

[JanW]

PS: Apologies for using iF2L, it was quicker to write than Intuitive F2L each time :-/

Just say F2L. I'd assume everyone in this thread is talking about mostly intuitive F2L when we talk about F2L. Personally I've learned only two F2L cases as algs, by actually looking up an alg from algdb. One of them I can mirror to all 4 corners, the other I use only with FR corner. And those are for very specific situations where I couldn't quite work out an easy solution on my own.

Congrats on the progress! Yes, those are indeed the three cases you need to learn. Just keep practicing and it will get easier and faster as you get used to the three cases. Over time you will learn shortcuts for how to best set up the different cases. Some of them will become almost algorithmic as you perform them so many times.

Once you are more confident in doing the different insertions, you can also practice inserting F2L pairs blind. Look at the cube and locate a corner and an edge, then look away and try to solve it into the correct spot. I do this all the time if I'm sitting in front of the TV.

 

[40yearstosolve]

Just say F2L. I'd assume everyone in this thread is talking about mostly intuitive F2L when we talk about F2L. Personally I've learned only two F2L cases as algs, by actually looking up an alg from algdb. One of them I can mirror to all 4 corners, the other I use only with FR corner. And those are for very specific situations where I couldn't quite work out an easy solution on my own.

Congrats on the progress! Yes, those are indeed the three cases you need to learn. Just keep practicing and it will get easier and faster as you get used to the three cases. Over time you will learn shortcuts for how to best set up the different cases. Some of them will become almost algorithmic as you perform them so many times.

Once you are more confident in doing the different insertions, you can also practice inserting F2L pairs blind. Look at the cube and locate a corner and an edge, then look away and try to solve it into the correct spot. I do this all the time if I'm sitting in front of the TV.

Fantastic thanks for the reassurance Jan.

With the remainder of my solve I think I am at a cross-roads. My mind is beginning to go into muscle memory but hovers between conscious and subconscious because sometimes I am not sure what I am doing and my conscious mind suddenly grabs a hold of the situation and I make a complete mess of it because I start to think what I am doing.

Solving the cube is fast becoming a mind expanding experience. It is much more than you first expect. I don’t think I have ever stuck at anything this long before :-D

 

[Logiqx]

My 3x3x3 practice has been somewhat sporadic over recent weeks but it seems I can still get small bursts of decent times.

I managed to catch a sub-14 Ao5 on film today but I've still got some way to go if I'm to replicate the times of @Selkie.

Times: (12.87) 15.32 13.48 12.94 (19.51) (13.06) = 13.91 Ao5

It would have been a 13.16 Ao5 if the 19.51 hadn't been involved!

 

[Jason Green]

What a difference a day makes!

Having already learned to listen to the advice of forum members here, I just spent the morning practising iF2L.

And wow!

The word ‘intuitive’ is indeed used for a very good reason.

If I have understood correctly, there are three key scenarios, which is simplifying it greatly - but if you act intuitively (read: logically) using these three scarnarios you can solve every situation.

1. White facing upwards.
2. Order incorrect (non-white is first).
3. Opposite colours racing up.

This is why it’s so hard to find a cheatsheet or explanation. Because in the case of iF2L you must first get a grip of its fundamental idea involving the pairs and slots.

Once you have understood that, the three scenarios I talk of will help you apply that fundamental into solving each pair.

It’s unlike any other principle of cubing I have found so far because a lot of it relies on you being intuitive. Unless here are some people that remember all the algos but wow that would hurt my head.

I am already quicker, less angry and able to write down a cribsheet for myself :-D ..but the crib is only in my language.. to attempt to create one for someone else to read is nigh on impossible because you need to understand the principles first.

I type this for myself, and in the interests of thanking you lovely lot for the help

Now I just need to speed it up.

Will be interesting to time myself now and in a week’s time.

PS: Apologies for using iF2L, it was quicker to write than Intuitive F2L each time :-/

As far as just getting used to the three basic cases for f2l I found this two part video good.

 

[40yearstosolve]

My 3x3x3 practice has been somewhat sporadic over recent weeks but it seems I can still get small bursts of decent times.

I managed to catch a sub-14 Ao5 on film today but I've still got some way to go if I'm to replicate the times of @Selkie.

Times: (12.87) 15.32 13.48 12.94 (19.51) (13.06) = 13.91 Ao5

It would have been a 13.16 Ao5 if the 19.51 hadn't been involved!

Staggering! Absolutely mesmerising to watch.

It makes me realise I have a long way to go.

Practising *solely* F2L at the moment. Where my fastest complete solve time was 1:38 it now takes me 2:34 to completely *only* the F2L bit!!!!!!! Starting to wonder if I am doing something wrong.

 

[Logiqx]

With the remainder of my solve I think I am at a cross-roads. My mind is beginning to go into muscle memory but hovers between conscious and subconscious because sometimes I am not sure what I am doing and my conscious mind suddenly grabs a hold of the situation and I make a complete mess of it because I start to think what I am doing.

If you'd like to understand the last layer a little better you might find the way I teach it to beginners interesting / helpful:

https://github.com/Logiqx/cubing-docs/tree/master/beginner (parts 3 + 4)

This leads into what I call "improver" level which is an easy progression:

https://github.com/Logiqx/cubing-docs/tree/master/improver (parts 3 + 4)

I think you'd probably benefit from the improver approach until such time as you decide to learn "4-look last layer" but start by reviewing the beginner version.

 

[Logiqx]

Staggering! Absolutely mesmerising to watch.

It makes me realise I have a long way to go.

Practising *solely* F2L at the moment. Where my fastest complete solve time was 1:38 it now takes me 2:34 to completely *only* the F2L bit!!!!!!! Starting to wonder if I am doing something wrong.

Bear in mind that I've been cubing since 2012. Whilst my progress is really quite slow compared to the kids it does show what can be done by someone older and with less spare time.

I doubt you're doing anything wrong at this stage. In a week or two your solve times will be better than your current record.

Progress often feels slow but every now you'll look back and see how much you've improved.

Edit: I'd second the RiDo video as a good tutorial.

 

[pglewis]

Pglewis suggested JPerm's F2L video. You can always watch more videos to get new views on the subject. Maybe some explanations work better for you than others.

I suggested JPerm's cross video but I'm not familiar with his F2L vid(s) (not yet, at least). The only F2L vid I think I've watched all the way through before is "RiDo's hunting story" that Jason shared and I think it's a great source for learning the ropes despite being "old" and probably geared towards a younger audience. That's definitely one I'd still point people to for getting started.

 

[pglewis]

Practising *solely* F2L at the moment. Where my fastest complete solve time was 1:38 it now takes me 2:34 to completely *only* the F2L bit!!!!!!! Starting to wonder if I am doing something wrong.

It is an ongoing series of "aha!" moments and I continue to get them as I progress. When I took up blindfold solving (which a year and a half ago I would have told you there's no way I can learn) it brought a whole new pile of "aha!" moments and learning from the accomplished folks here keeps bringing more insight.

You are learning the ropes and how things work right now. Even if it takes you 10 minutes experimenting with a single pair you'll come out with new intuition that will make that situation easier the next time you encounter it. You can solve anything with the three basic cases: corner with white facing up, corner and edge same color facing up, corner and edge different colors facing up. The first pair is easiest in the sense that none of the slots are solved so you can use any slot to split/move pieces around to get them ready to insert. As you solve some slots you become more restricted in order to preserve solved pairs.

A couple of weeks of practicing those basics will open your eyes to troublesome cases and you'll pick up tricks to handle those better. There are lots of F2L cases, I still continue to evaluate how I deal with certain F2L cases and whether or not there is a better way, that's been ongoing for me for two years.

Also: definitely don't worry about any distinction between "intuitive F2L" and "algorithmic F2L". No matter how you learn it'll become automatic with practice.

 

[pglewis]

I suggested JPerm's cross video but I'm not familiar with his F2L vid(s) (not yet, at least).

... well, with the exception of this one, which is pure awesome but not recommend for an introduction to F2L:

 

[SpartanSailor]

Just ordered a Giiker Smart Cube. Looks like that could be a lot of fun .

I was looking at a video of that last nite and was thinking it could be a fun one to have. I’ll be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

 

[SpartanSailor]

Staggering! Absolutely mesmerising to watch.

It makes me realise I have a long way to go.

Practising *solely* F2L at the moment. Where my fastest complete solve time was 1:38 it now takes me 2:34 to completely *only* the F2L bit!!!!!!! Starting to wonder if I am doing something wrong.

As a point of reference about slowing down... I use primarily intuitive f2l. Just figured out the basics of how to pair the pieces and just got faster at the same thing. I’ve hit a wall and feel like there are some algs for particular cases that would be beneficial to me now. Well, just adding a couple new options has slowed me considerably. Now I have “think” if that’s the setup I know or not, then I need to remember the alg and do it and hope I don’t make an error.

It can be frustrating, but I know this slowing down is temporary. And I can tell the solution for a pair is faster so, when I get it into muscle memory, my time will return and I’ll probably finally break thru my next wall...

Anytime you learn something new, you will slow down a bit. But the gains after that are substantial as well.

 

[pglewis]

[...] just adding a couple new options has slowed me considerably. Now I have “think” if that’s the setup I know or not, then I need to remember the alg and do it and hope I don’t make an error.

It can be frustrating, but I know this slowing down is temporary. And I can tell the solution for a pair is faster so, when I get it into muscle memory, my time will return and I’ll probably finally break thru my next wall...

Very much this. Every time I tweak how I handle an F2L case, add a new alg, etc. it slows me down temporarily because I have to think again. Y'all have witnessed me going sub-30 about 5 different times now .

 

[Old Tom]

So intuitive F2L. I found this guy and I really like his style of dumbing it down to basics. This is how I got to where I am today, boiling things down to their lowest common denominator- maybe we all do this?

I can’t fit any more algos in my aging skull so perhaps the ‘intuitive’ part of intuitive F2L is supposed to be learn this way.

But this guy is the best I have found.

Two questions...

1. It feels so awkward and slow beyond words - how the heck do I get fast at this?? Is it purely repetition?

2. Is there a better video anyone can recommend. I know pglewis kindly shared a video but for some reason the guy (I forget his name, but he seems quite well known in YourTube cubing circles).

I am determined to keep at it ready for my summer holiday where instead of reading a book this year I shall become known as ‘that dorky bloke sat over there playing with his stupid puzzle day in day out’ - I hope I am known as that, I’d get a kick out of people not getting it haha.

I am pretty much where you are on this, except (1) I am older, by a lot, and (2) I am not so much focussed on speed as on enjoying the learning process.

I started F2L last April and then, very quickly, once I became aware of the two basic simple cases, could solve anything that came up without learning any algs. You all seem to call this "intuitive", but really, for me, it is at this stage "logical and analytic", my mind is fully involved and I am sort of solving every new position all over again, but with increasing ease, increasing speed, and without really trying to remember anything other than general principles (and formulating these principles as I go on). By the time it becomes "intuitive", muscle-memory, etc., some of the fun of solving it may actually be gone.

There's a price of course. If I'm focussing on the current sequence, then there is zero look-ahead. If the goal is to get faster, then I guess I wiil have to categorize all the cases, recognize them quickly and apply my by-then "intuitive" moves.

I'm just in no rush to move on to that stage.

I lie! The Fredericksburg Open is approaching.

 

[SpartanSailor]

If I’m honest... one reason I’ve taken so long to “study” F2L algs to find optimised ones that work with my style, is because my ego keeps getting in the way. Meanwhile, I bang my head against the wall endlessly to make notional gains, if any...

 

[pglewis]

If I’m honest... one reason I’ve taken so long to “study” F2L algs to find optimised ones that work with my style, is because my ego keeps getting in the way. Meanwhile, I bang my head against the wall endlessly to make notional gains, if any...

BTW, JPerm's PDF that goes with the vid I posted above is a gold mine, IMO. I can only really digest one or two new things at a time so it's a gift that keeps on giving.

Do you pay attention to edge orientation and use any alternate inserts to flip edges when needed? I have a few alternates for special cases besides just straight sledgehammer. It has taken a while for any of that to pay off with recognition but I'm beginning to be glad I added them.