# Older cubers discussions

#### mark49152

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
I had a look at Daniel Lin's UFR list. He seems to be very much into RUD algs. There are several cases that to me seem unnecessarily complicated. Must be some gripping thing. For example, in setup moves he tends to use wide l moves instead of L. Can't be any reason for that other than him holding the cube so that L moves are impractical. Probably for the same reason some cases that could be done easily with L interchanges he did with longer and more complicated RUD algs.
RUD makes for much faster execution if you can use lefty flicks on both U and D and keep it regripless as far as possible. Most of the speed optimal comms in lists like Daniel's, Graham's and Ishaan's are RUD. If you're going to rework your comms it would make sense to explore those comms and get familiar with the patterns and the way they are intended to be finger tricked and see how much of it you can make work for you. At the end of last year I spent several weeks upgrading my corner comms to speed optimal RUD and they are much more comfortable to execute now.

When I need to set up the left layer I also use Lw. It's just because it's the counterpart to R and it feels more comfortable to do e.g. Lw R than to do L R and keep the M slice independent. For example, A perm.

#### openseas

##### Member
@openseas : Commiserations on the 3BLD. If Orozco is giving you trouble, maybe it's time to think about going for 3style corners? Setting up two pieces to a comm that interchanges with URF or URB (assuming UBL buffer) is really not that hard, and a lot of fun. Orozco seems popular these days but personally I think it's not really worthwhile as an intermediate method since with similar learning effort you could be solving two pieces per comm instead. Just my 2 pence sterling.
@mark49152 / Thanks. My plan was, adding helper positions (started from URB) until I finish about half of all corner comms - then, switch to full 3 style. (like, mastering URB helper followed by URF helper, then, ULF helper, so on.) Need to review my strategy.

#### h2f

For example, in setup moves he tends to use wide l moves instead of L.
Lw' setup is often equal to x rotation eg. Aperm. And as @mark49152 said: RUD algs are very fast and often regripless.

#### mark49152

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
@mark49152 / Thanks. My plan was, adding helper positions (started from URB) until I finish about half of all corner comms - then, switch to full 3 style. (like, mastering URB helper followed by URF helper, then, ULF helper, so on.) Need to review my strategy.

My approach, which I kind of refined second time around when I updated my comms, was to focus on both comm patterns and setup patterns that are easily combined together to cover multiple pairs of targets. With just a few patterns, you can cover the majority of cases. I might write it up into a guide when I get time, but I'll try to illustrate with just a handful of examples.

Take CG (Speffz) which is [U2, R' D R]. It doesn't take much to figure out variations for cycling any U face sticker with any side sticker on the D layer, e.g. #BH = [U, R D' R'] or #CP = [U2, R' D' R].

With simple R setups and cancellations you can also figure out exchanges of side stickers on the D layer like #KG = [R U2 R', D].

Many 2-sticker cases can be easily set up to one of these two patterns. Examples:-

#QG = [R': #CG]
#WG = [R: #KG]
#NW = [R: #OK] where #OK = [D', R U2 R']
#KW = [R D': #CG]
#JH = [R: #BH]
#IH = [F R: #BH]
#JV = [F: #KG]
#ML = [R' D: #TP] where #TP = [R' U R, D]
#PG = [R' D': #KS]
#BV = [R' D R: #BH]
#IK = [F R: #BL]
#IN = [F R: #BO]

Etc. It's a lot of fun figuring them out and you'll almost halve your move count from Orozco .

#### JanW

##### Member
My approach, which I kind of refined second time around when I updated my comms, was to focus on both comm patterns and setup patterns that are easily combined together to cover multiple pairs of targets.
This is pretty much what I had in mind as well. Right now my toolbox is limited to a small set of possible insertions and interchanges, and setups to those. It's quite easy to work with, since they are all intuitive and I don't need to remember any algs. I want to expand on this by adding more possible insertions, but at the same time I want to keep it intuitive, so that I can understand and work out every single case, without remembering an alg. [U2, R' D R] in it's different variations was the first one I planned to add. Then I want to look at lists, like Daniel Lin's, for other easy insertions I could include.

#### JanW

##### Member
PB Single by .5 seconds!

11.43 F R' D2 L' B2 R2 B2 L2 U2 F2 L B2 D B' U R' F2 R2 D L2

I'm pretty sure I opened with:

x2 // inspection
F' R' U D F2 R // XCross

Then I don't know what I did. Somehow I got a PLL skip without AUF at the end, but can't reconstruct.

F R' U D F U' F R would also have been a pretty nice 8 move XXCross.

#### pglewis

##### Member
My approach, which I kind of refined second time around when I updated my comms, was to focus on both comm patterns and setup patterns that are easily combined together to cover multiple pairs of targets. With just a few patterns, you can cover the majority of cases. I might write it up into a guide when I get time, but I'll try to illustrate with just a handful of examples.
Do you use ULB buffer? How do you cope with an odd number of targets? Seems almost stupid not to pick up a few of the easy ones here and feels like I could mix it with OP.

#### mark49152

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Do you use ULB buffer? How do you cope with an odd number of targets? Seems almost stupid not to pick up a few of the easy ones here and feels like I could mix it with OP.
Yes, ULB. If parity, I do an OP Y perm for the last target.

I did start out trying to mix a few comms in with OP. It's a good approach in theory, but it didn't work too well for me because comms require different thinking. If timed, I would find myself just solving everything OP at full pelt so that I didn't have to pause or think. If untimed, there's no point using OP at all.

#### mitja

##### Member

My approach, which I kind of refined second time around when I updated my comms, was to focus on both comm patterns and setup patterns that are easily combined together to cover multiple pairs of targets. With just a few patterns, you can cover the majority of cases. I might write it up into a guide when I get time, but I'll try to illustrate with just a handful of examples.

Take CG (Speffz) which is [U2, R' D R]. It doesn't take much to figure out variations for cycling any U face sticker with any side sticker on the D layer, e.g. #BH = [U, R D' R'] or #CP = [U2, R' D' R].

With simple R setups and cancellations you can also figure out exchanges of side stickers on the D layer like #KG = [R U2 R', D].

Many 2-sticker cases can be easily set up to one of these two patterns. Examples:-

#QG = [R': #CG]
#WG = [R: #KG]
#NW = [R: #OK] where #OK = [D', R U2 R']
#KW = [R D': #CG]
#JH = [R: #BH]
#IH = [F R: #BH]
#JV = [F: #KG]
#ML = [R' D: #TP] where #TP = [R' U R, D]
#PG = [R' D': #KS]
#BV = [R' D R: #BH]
#IK = [F R: #BL]
#IN = [F R: #BO]

Etc. It's a lot of fun figuring them out and you'll almost halve your move count from Orozco .
This is very helpfull Mark. It is perfect for someone like me, who just started corner comms. Now I just need to translate those speffz letters into mine.

#### h2f

Package with 10 Yuxin Little Magics arrived today. They look set well so I'll do 9 cubes mbld tonight because I'm gonna try 9 cubes on the comp this week. At this moment I could try maybe 13 cubes but competition is too close and 9 seems comfortable for me.

#### pglewis

##### Member
I did start out trying to mix a few comms in with OP. It's a good approach in theory, but it didn't work too well for me because comms require different thinking. If timed, I would find myself just solving everything OP at full pelt so that I didn't have to pause or think. If untimed, there's no point using OP at all.
I can see that. My thought was at least the pure comms without any setups seem dead simple but not sure how well it would work in practice. You can bet it'll be on the agenda with sighted practice however, moratorium be damned.

#### JanW

##### Member
Got a ridiculous scramble for 3bld:

1:35.28 R' B L2 D2 B' D2 L2 F' D2 R2 B' L2 D B' U B2 L2 D' R D' Fw' Uw'

PB by a lot. 47.48 memo, 47.80 execution. Could have been sub 1:30 if I hadn't spent so much time not being able to believe the scramble was that ridiculous.

Yesterday I had a pretty good scramble, 3 corner cycles + 5 edge cycles, but got a 2:10 DNF as I had a wrong letter in my memo. Immediately afterwards I did the same scramble again, did the tracing as I would when I memo, then solved it. Second attempt was a 1:12 success. I cut 30 seconds of both memo and execution time. Shows what is possible if I could do tracing fluently without unnecessary reviews and pauses to come up with words, and if I could get rid of pauses in execution.

#### openseas

##### Member

My approach, which I kind of refined second time around when I updated my comms, was to focus on both comm patterns and setup patterns that are easily combined together to cover multiple pairs of targets. With just a few patterns, you can cover the majority of cases. I might write it up into a guide when I get time, but I'll try to illustrate with just a handful of examples.

Take CG (Speffz) which is [U2, R' D R]. It doesn't take much to figure out variations for cycling any U face sticker with any side sticker on the D layer, e.g. #BH = [U, R D' R'] or #CP = [U2, R' D' R].

With simple R setups and cancellations you can also figure out exchanges of side stickers on the D layer like #KG = [R U2 R', D].

Many 2-sticker cases can be easily set up to one of these two patterns. Examples:-

#QG = [R': #CG]
#WG = [R: #KG]
#NW = [R: #OK] where #OK = [D', R U2 R']
#KW = [R D': #CG]
#JH = [R: #BH]
#IH = [F R: #BH]
#JV = [F: #KG]
#ML = [R' D: #TP] where #TP = [R' U R, D]
#PG = [R' D': #KS]
#BV = [R' D R: #BH]
#IK = [F R: #BL]
#IN = [F R: #BO]

Etc. It's a lot of fun figuring them out and you'll almost halve your move count from Orozco .
Thanks, @mark49152 That sounds quite interesting. As you wrote, I also had trouble mixing OP with comms - that was the reason to switch to Orozco + I had almost weekly competition which made it difficult to have a long term strategy / plans.
But your suggestion looks doable. Thanks!

#### One Wheel

##### Member
Silly little accomplishment, but I'm excited: 3BLD pb of 10:32 for the WC. I believe it's my first full success since switching to M2 edges. Of solves I have recorded in CStimer, this is success 2 out of 57 attempts. Corners were 6 targets with no cycle breaks, but I was surprised I got the edges. 16 edge targets, UF and BD targets were both second in the pair, and a flipped buffer. Almost time to move on to 4BLD! I've got a comp coming up at the end of May that I'm going to try to get to; hopefully get a 3BLD success there, and barring a compete meltdown I should be able to get 3x3 and Feet PBs as well. I'm considering picking up a cheap pyraminx and learning it just well enough to make the 45s cutoff, then promptly forgetting how to solve it again.

#### pglewis

##### Member
3bld: mostly just been drilling sighted execution and fiddling with comms for a few days but did a timed solve when I should have been in bed last night. Pushed memo and took off rather haphazardly for a 3:45 DNF, two edges flipped (one forgotten image, one flipped in memo) and a twisted corner (forgot the very last image). Drills have improved my tracing and speffz assignment a lot while less full memo practice showed.

#### JohnnyReggae

##### Member
Had a pretty good streak with 3x3 today and managed to break my mo3, ao5, and ao12 PB's It's been a while since I last broke any 3x3 PB's. Still waiting for that single though ...

mo3: 12.22 (14.82, 11.58, 10.26)

ao5: 13.04 ((14.95), 12.72, 14.82, 11.58, (10.26))

ao12: 14.14

Generated By csTimer on 2018-4-6
avg of 12: 14.14

Time List:
1. 13.88 D L D2 B' U L' D L2 F U2 B2 L2 D2 F2 U B2 U R2 U2 B
2. 14.95 U2 F U2 F' R2 F U2 F D2 R2 L' U' L D B' L R U B L
3. 12.72 R' U2 F' U2 F R2 B' F2 L2 F D2 F2 U' R' U2 B L' U2 L U F2
4. 14.82 D2 B' L2 B' D2 F U2 R2 F2 L2 R B L B2 L2 U L B' D F'
5. 11.58 F2 R2 U2 L2 F R2 B' D2 F U L' F2 L' D' B F L F' R
6. (10.26) D' L' U2 B2 U2 F2 L' D2 R2 B2 D2 R F' U L2 B D U2 L' B'
7. 15.52 L' B' R2 D2 B' F2 D2 B' L2 D2 L2 D B2 D2 L2 R B' L' F' U'
8. (17.09) L F' U' R' L' D B2 R L2 D L2 D' R2 U' F2 L2 D2 L2 D R
9. 15.09 D R2 U2 L2 D B2 R2 U' F2 U' B2 L' B D F' U R' U2 B' R2 U
10. 15.68 B D' L2 D2 L2 R2 D' U' R2 U2 L' F' U2 R' B R B D
11. 14.05 U2 F R' U2 F' R U D F D' R2 U R2 U2 L2 F2 U R2 L2 B2
12. 13.09 B2 R' L2 F' L U2 R F U R2 F2 D2 R' B2 L' D2 R F2 L' U2

#### muchacho

##### Member
Improved 3x3 Ao5 PB a bit, from 14.683 (from 1.5 months ago) to 14.648 and two solves later to 14.642.

65796 06-abr-2018 16:13:01 00:14.719 R2 B2 R2 D2 L2 D' F2 U R2 L2 D2 L' F' U R D F' D' L' B F2 D'
65795 06-abr-2018 16:12:21 00:17.591 F2 U' L2 D2 B2 U L2 U F2 L2 D' R' U' F R' D' R2 U' B' D B2
65794 06-abr-2018 16:11:40 00:14.840 B2 D' B2 L2 U R2 D F2 D L2 U' L F L2 F2 D' B2 D2 B D' R2
65793 06-abr-2018 16:11:02 00:14.368 L2 D R2 F2 L2 U B2 U L2 D' U L' U2 R' D B L2 D F' D F' U2
65792 06-abr-2018 16:10:27 00:12.791 R2 B2 F2 U B2 F2 U2 R2 L2 B2 D2 R' F' R2 F' L B2 D2 R' D2 U'
65791 06-abr-2018 16:09:49 00:19.695 D F2 R2 F2 U' F2 R2 F2 R2 U' R2 B D B U L2 D R' B U2 R2 U'
65790 06-abr-2018 16:09:13 00:14.736 U' B2 D R2 F2 D R2 L2 B2 U2 F2 R' F D L B' R2 D F2 U2 R' L

#### JanW

##### Member
Got an assortment of budget cubes today. 10 days for a shipment to arrive from cubezz.com is a new record!

Now I can totally understand why people are saying the Little Magic needs magnets. Wow, it's fast! I can imagine with magnets it is great. Not a big fan of it as it is though. I do find that M slice moves are a lot easier on it than on other cubes, so if I ever want to dabble with Roux, this will be my cube of choice.

I believe the stickerless MF3RS2 I got is a dud. Out of the box it was the worst 3x3 I've ever unboxed. Super tight and sounded weird. I loosened all screws about 3-4 full revs, which helped a bit, but one side was still really tight. I noticed it didn't get any loser no matter how much I loosened the screw. And it still sounded weird. Took the cube apart, lubed the core and adjusted tensions, now it's manageable, but still feels like something is wrong with it. I've had a couple of Cyclone Boys cubes previously with this same feeling of "this is not how it's supposed to be".

I also got a stickered MF3RS2, that one is really nice! But my favorite so far in this shipment is the Qiyi Warrior W. Also the cheapest, at $2.85. The shades are a bit weird, can't tell yet if that is a problem. However, after playing with and adjusting those budget cubes for an hour or so, I picked up my GTS2M and that's still in a league of it's own. The magnets make all the difference in the world. The way they have been rushing onto the market the past year, I'm confident that before too long there will be magnetized budget cubes available. Already is a magnetized$6 ShengShou on cubezz (have one ordered, though not expecting too much of it). Since I don't really have to have a set of Mbld cubes right now, and I expect there to be much better magnetized options soon, I've decided that this is not the right time to buy a batch of budget cubes. I'll wait and see. For now I can practice mbld with what I have.

#### newtonbase

Got an assortment of budget cubes today. 10 days for a shipment to arrive from cubezz.com is a new record!

Now I can totally understand why people are saying the Little Magic needs magnets. Wow, it's fast! I can imagine with magnets it is great. Not a big fan of it as it is though. I do find that M slice moves are a lot easier on it than on other cubes, so if I ever want to dabble with Roux, this will be my cube of choice.

I believe the stickerless MF3RS2 I got is a dud. Out of the box it was the worst 3x3 I've ever unboxed. Super tight and sounded weird. I loosened all screws about 3-4 full revs, which helped a bit, but one side was still really tight. I noticed it didn't get any loser no matter how much I loosened the screw. And it still sounded weird. Took the cube apart, lubed the core and adjusted tensions, now it's manageable, but still feels like something is wrong with it. I've had a couple of Cyclone Boys cubes previously with this same feeling of "this is not how it's supposed to be".

I also got a stickered MF3RS2, that one is really nice! But my favorite so far in this shipment is the Qiyi Warrior W. Also the cheapest, at $2.85. The shades are a bit weird, can't tell yet if that is a problem. However, after playing with and adjusting those budget cubes for an hour or so, I picked up my GTS2M and that's still in a league of it's own. The magnets make all the difference in the world. The way they have been rushing onto the market the past year, I'm confident that before too long there will be magnetized budget cubes available. Already is a magnetized$6 ShengShou on cubezz (have one ordered, though not expecting too much of it). Since I don't really have to have a set of Mbld cubes right now, and I expect there to be much better magnetized options soon, I've decided that this is not the right time to buy a batch of budget cubes. I'll wait and see. For now I can practice mbld with what I have.
Definitely worth popping some magnets in the Little Magic. You'll like it.

#### pglewis

##### Member
Now I can totally understand why people are saying the Little Magic needs magnets. Wow, it's fast! I can imagine with magnets it is great. Not a big fan of it as it is though. I do find that M slice moves are a lot easier on it than on other cubes, so if I ever want to dabble with Roux, this will be my cube of choice.
Yeah, raw speed and good slice moves are its strengths to me; blocky feel would be the downside. Magnets help the stability considerably (mine is the Cubers Home version). I'm still on the fence about using it for mbld since I currently prefer a slower puzzle for confidence there. I should experiment with tensions some.

I believe the stickerless MF3RS2 I got is a dud. Out of the box it was the worst 3x3 I've ever unboxed. Super tight and sounded weird.
Maybe, it might also just need to break in some. Mine was a little sandy feeling and slow out of the box but a couple hours of solves made a big difference. I kicked the spring noise with a little light silicone lube over the washers and set the tensions fairly tight on my magnetic (SCS Supernova) and it's very serviceable puzzle. Magnets feel rather light (which I like) and it does slices pretty well.

However, after playing with and adjusting those budget cubes for an hour or so, I picked up my GTS2M and that's still in a league of it's own.
At the end of the day I've found it hard to beat a GTS2M or magnetic Valk if money is no object. Valk 3M is probably my top choice for blind right now. The fact that it tends to slow up compared to my GTS's works in its favor for me there.

h2f