Is ZZ an objectively worse method than Roux and CFOP?

In ZZ, you do EOline, ZZF2L, and then you have a few options: WV, CLS, COLL, or ZBLL. (And CTLL, and probably some others that I'm missing.)
https://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/ZZ
There is a huge list of ZZ LL and LSLS variants.

In CFOP, you do Cross, F2L and then you have a few options: OLL/PLL, OLLCP/EPLL (and some more that I'm probably missing.), but that's usually as far as it goes.

But if you're solving with CFOP? You can start with a cross, or an X-cross; you can try your best to make a good cross out of a bad case and improvise your F2L, or if you have a decent case, track your first F2L pair in inspection. What? Your cross is easier than that? Consider an X-cross, or track more than one pair. Also remember that there are many different ways to approach cross building and a few different ways to approach X-crosses, so at the start of the solve, you have quite a few options.
While I think it is hard to expand EOLine to XEOLine, it is possible, and I have done it in several (albeit not many) speedsolves. I have preserved pairs and built them during EOLine, whether that be by doing EO and then building the blocks before my Line is done, or building the blocks before EO is done. There are plenty of options.

Then there's F2L; if you don't mind rotations, CFOP F2L is pretty fast and efficient, and you also have a lot of control over multiple pairs and empty slots, so you can preserve/force certain edge/corner orientations. This affects the pairs you are solving (multislotting), the pairs you are going to solve (which assists in lookahead and ergonomics), and your last layer itself. And that's another thing that you can take more advantage of in CFOP: Last Slot Last Layer. Whether it be VLS, MGLS, CLS, RLS... you can learn quite a few algs to deal with all kinds of cases depending on what you're comfortable with. I want to point out that all of these options do not necessarily make CFOP better; in fact, it may make CFOP worse in some cases, as a more straightforward approach is sometimes much better than a more complicated (maybe even theoretically better) one. The point of both methods, initially, was to make a straightforward and efficient method, and both went in different directions. Simply due to ZZ's nature (edge orientation, optimized last layer, etc.), there is not much one can do to perfect upon the method other than learn ZBLS/ZBLL and practice a lot. To contrast, a lot of CFOP's steps can be interrupted or approached in different ways, which yields more diversity. This is exactly how I look at CFOP and ZZ: for better or for worse, CFOP is more compatible with a lot of alg sets and intuitive approaches that ZZ solvers will never have to worry about.
I think this describes ZZF2L pretty well, though you never have to mind rotations.
You have an incredible amount of flexibility when building squares and pairs, influencing other pieces. Multislotting is arguably better since edges are oriented and can slide into their place easily, without having to get oriented. This abundance of options is, as you mention, what actually slows ZZ down. You have to chose between a dozen different options that change with each turn. Phil wrote a post about this somewhere.
Some would say that because DR/DL are open for pieces to hide, lookahead is impaired.
My response is to ask how you can look ahead with you edges misoriented?
The same response: You get used to it. You lookahead before a piece disappears into the murky demensions of {DR/DL and and misorientation}.

Maybe it could shine for oh or feet.
Phil Yu peaked at #2 and NAR in OH average a few years ago. He's still ranked at 51, though his old NAR average would be only 58th now. Andrew Huang is ranked 37th, Andrew Nathenson is 66th, and Simon Kalhofer is 71st. While only 4/100 isn't big at all, the proportion of ZZ solvers in the top 100 in OH average is big. I wouldn't recon that more than 1k people solve using ZZ, and nearly everyelse uses CFOP/LBL.

I got 71st in Feet singe, and 108th in Feet mean. Now I'm 86th and 123rd respectively. I plan on improving those ranks.
I don't know of any other "good" ZZ/Feet solvers other than myself.

I would say that they already do shine.


EOline is less fingertrickfriendly than cross and makes it harder to plan ahead into F2L
The RUL moveset makes fingertricks way worse and forces a lot of regrips and lowers overall TPS, it also makes the F2L too restricted and makes multislotting almost impossible

The unsolved D edges make R2s and L2s possible and those are just horrible(if they aren't part of a nice alg like the Uperm), it also screwes up lookahead and overall flow of the solve.
I disagree with everything here, except that EOLine is slightly less fingertricky than cross, though fingertrickyness doesn't impede lookahead.
 
While I think it is hard to expand EOLine to XEOLine, it is possible
Don't forget EOCross.

Also, @GenTheThief you wrote the post I have been attempting to write in response to @EmperorZant
It is great and I just want to agree that ZZ is much more intuitive than CFOP with more unique solves and more variants. That is why I initially decided to switch from CFOP to ZZ, it is more fun than cross, pair, pair, pair, pair, oll, pll.

But that is slowly being defeated by ZBLL which is the poor man's 1LLL, and only orients some of the pieces (edges) and solves the corners all at once.
I don't think you mean ZBLL. ZBLL does everything in the last layer except for edge orientation.
 
...The RUL moveset makes fingertricks way worse and forces a lot of regrips and lowers overall TPS, it also makes the F2L too restricted and makes multislotting almost impossible...
I'm not sure:

Scramble: B D' B D L' D' L U2 L B2 U B2 U F2 U2 D F2 U2 L2 F2

U' D R2 F D F // (6) EOL
U' R U2 R2 U L' U L' U L R' U' R U' L' U' L2 U2 R U' L U' R // (23/29) F2L 4x multislotting
U' L R' U2 R2 U R2 U R U L' U' R U2 R' // (15/44) ZZBL Pi

Albeit, it wasn't done under speed condition.

I think there is a lot to discover about efficient blockbuilding but (almost) nobody is working on it. For me, this is the fun part with this method.
 
I'm not sure:

Scramble: B D' B D L' D' L U2 L B2 U B2 U F2 U2 D F2 U2 L2 F2

U' D R2 F D F // (6) EOL
U' R U2 R2 U L' U L' U L R' U' R U' L' U' L2 U2 R U' L U' R // (23/29) F2L 4x multislotting
U' L R' U2 R2 U R2 U R U L' U' R U2 R' // (15/44) ZZBL Pi

Albeit, it wasn't done under speed condition.

I think there is a lot to discover about efficient blockbuilding but (almost) nobody is working on it. For me, this is the fun part with this method.

Could you break down the F2L in brackets?
 
Also, orienting all the edges at the beginning isn't that great, because you can easily do it during your last 2 slots on CFOP without much effort. just by doing regular inserts and sledges, the probability of skipping EO is 1/8, you can also make that higher by solving your pairs in different ways or in a different order.
If you're orienting edges in the last two slots, you're losing (in my opinion) the biggest advantage you have with ZZ; its nice F2L cases
 
I'm not sure:

Scramble: B D' B D L' D' L U2 L B2 U B2 U F2 U2 D F2 U2 L2 F2

U' D R2 F D F // (6) EOL
U' R U2 R2 U L' U L' U L R' U' R U' L' U' L2 U2 R U' L U' R // (23/29) F2L 4x multislotting
U' L R' U2 R2 U R2 U R U L' U' R U2 R' // (15/44) ZZBL Pi

Albeit, it wasn't done under speed condition.

I think there is a lot to discover about efficient blockbuilding but (almost) nobody is working on it. For me, this is the fun part with this method.
Yeah, as I said just my initial thoughts after starting to analyse ZZ. What I meant was that the lack of RUF makes it harder to influence your next pair or at least doing it efficiently (sledge for example) but since ZZ isn't isn't just pair, pair, pair, pair (aka CFOP bias) this is probably not as bad as I thought.
 
To comment my example: I was building the 1st pair and saw how to build the 2nd pair for the same block (left). While trying to assemble them, I saw the 3rd pair. Then again, while trying to build the left block, the 4th pair was built by itself!
Honestly, during a speedsolve, it's often more confusing than anything else to try to keep everything intact.

I don't understand what you say about influencing the next pair. I do it everytime, I suppose. While making a pair, I try to separare glued pieces for the next pair. Also, very often, it's better to build two pairs, then a square, then a block, instead of pair 1 -> square -> pair 2 -> block. There's less bad surprises like that.

But, I really don't know a lot about CFOP, so I can't really compare.

What I observe is that there exist no advanced tutorial for experts for the ZZ method. But I think there exist a whole universe of possibilities regarding the blockbuilding during F2L. People should learn to recognize patterns and how to build blocks from these configurations.
 
Not sure about what you meant.
U' R U2 R2 U L' U L' U L R' U' R U' L' // building 4 pairs
U' L2 U2 R U' L U' R // assembling 4 pairs
That helps.
If this is how you did it, that's fine. Thanks.

I think ZZ definitely has potential. We just need our "Feliks Zemdegs".

One of the reasons why he's champion status is because of his unbeatable look-ahead.

That takes years of repetition to build.
 
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I'm sub-12 with both ZZ and CFOP (I'm awful at roux so i can't weigh in there), to put it simply, they are all as good as one-another. I use ZZ for some solves and CFOP for others, whatever makes most sense at the time... I see it like this, sometimes it's best to use a COLL instead of an OLL and sometimes it's best to orient and block build. But the main thing, the most important thing, is what FEELS best to you? Do you love using the M slice? Do you love not rotating? Do you love the freedom to spam any and all layers to achieve an outcome?

If you want the ultimate method for speed then you're in luck because i know it. It's called the god method, it never takes over 20 moves and has billions of cases that are infinitely impossible to recognize... Or you could just learn whatever you want and mess around with every method? They all have advantages and disadvantages, take the best from them and adapt to the scramble at hand.
 
Most people say too many people use CFOP and ZZ might not be able to catch up. And from what I've seen people who use it have a hard time having consistency.
I think this is a distortion in perception caused by ZZ-CT users (which is a variation that is inconsistent). If you look at people who use more traditional variations of ZZ, they tend to be more consistent. Andy Huang, Simon Kalhofer, and Sebastiano Tronto have all been quite consistent with their recent official averages.
 
I think this is a distortion in perception caused by ZZ-CT users (which is a variation that is inconsistent). If you look at people who use more traditional variations of ZZ, they tend to be more consistent. Andy Huang, Simon Kalhofer, and Sebastiano Tronto have all been quite consistent with their recent official averages.

Definitely. ZZ-CT is pretty inconsistent and I was referring to it
 
I'm sub-12 with both ZZ and CFOP (I'm awful at roux so i can't weigh in there), to put it simply, they are all as good as one-another. I use ZZ for some solves and CFOP for others, whatever makes most sense at the time... I see it like this, sometimes it's best to use a COLL instead of an OLL and sometimes it's best to orient and block build. But the main thing, the most important thing, is what FEELS best to you? Do you love using the M slice? Do you love not rotating? Do you love the freedom to spam any and all layers to achieve an outcome?

If you want the ultimate method for speed then you're in luck because i know it. It's called the god method, it never takes over 20 moves and has billions of cases that are infinitely impossible to recognize... Or you could just learn whatever you want and mess around with every method? They all have advantages and disadvantages, take the best from them and adapt to the scramble at hand.
All humans have the same hands and brains (kinda) and therefore have the same theoretical speed limit. Different methods have different advantages and disadvantages, but since people have roughly the same conditions there should be a method that is better suited for a human solver and/or is objectively superior.
God's method isn't a good method btw
 
I posted the foööowing a ehile ago in the OA thread and didn't get an answer yet. I thought I might share It here, to fire the discussion:

Hi
A zzf2l question: I figured, that its more efficient to leave the f2l slot open after ive done a pair. But how many moves do I actually save on average? Is there a way to calculate that? To make the calculation easier, lets say that the next pair is always the pair of the same block and lets assume that I solve that pair optimally using <RUL>.

And is there a difference of saved moves whether its about the first or the second block?
 
Hi
A zzf2l question: I figured, that its more efficient to leave the f2l slot open after ive done a pair. But how many moves do I actually save on average? Is there a way to calculate that? To make the calculation easier, lets say that the next pair is always the pair of the same block and lets assume that I solve that pair optimally using <RUL>.

These numbers aren't perfect but should give you a good idea. If you optimally do the back left 2x2, followed by the front left pair, then the back right 2x2, and then the front right pair. Here are the statistics:
ZZ-BlockPair.PNG


If instead, you build the optimal left block and then the optimal right block, here are the results:
ZZ-BlockBlock.PNG


This does not clearly show the affect of openslotting, but it shows that building the full block is much more efficient than building a sub block and then adding in the other pair. It should be noted that solving zz in the way recorded above would be slightly suboptimal because it always does the blocks/pairs in the same order.
 
These numbers aren't perfect but should give you a good idea. If you optimally do the back left 2x2, followed by the front left pair, then the back right 2x2, and then the front right pair. Here are the statistics:
View attachment 8188

If instead, you build the optimal left block and then the optimal right block, here are the results:
View attachment 8189

This does not clearly show the affect of openslotting, but it shows that building the full block is much more efficient than building a sub block and then adding in the other pair. It should be noted that solving zz in the way recorded above would be slightly suboptimal because it always does the blocks/pairs in the same order.
This is pretty cool to see because I actually average about 32 moves for EOline+F2L. Although I don't have a completely fixed order, I do have a very strong preference. It's cool to know that what ever moves I waste by not being perfectly optimal are pretty much cancelled by doing a bit of openslotting and other F2L tricks.
 
this is the best point I've read, guess I'm swiching methods to briggs2

Nah man, beginner's method is where it's at.

Honestly though, I see very few reasons why ZZ would be objectively worse. For people who learn full ZBLL, I'd say doing EO line is more move efficient than ZBF2L. It's got some pretty good blockbuilding opportunities during F2L too.
 
I started writing a post here but 400 words in i realized it might be a little too long for a forum post. I'll save what I wrote and will probably use it if I ever need to write a debate article in school (I will of course share that with you here on the forum).

Here I'll quickly explain why I think ZZ is an objectively worse method.

EOline is less fingertrickfriendly than cross and makes it harder to plan ahead into F2L
The RUL moveset makes fingertricks way worse and forces a lot of regrips and lowers overall TPS, it also makes the F2L too restricted and makes multislotting almost impossible

The unsolved D edges make R2s and L2s possible and those are just horrible(if they aren't part of a nice alg like the Uperm), it also screwes up lookahead and overall flow of the solve.
First point: No, EOline is not objectively less fingertricky than cross. I can consistently sub 2 my EOlines, and about 80-85% of the time, sub 1.5 them. I can say with absolute certainty, they are often quite fingertrick friendly. If you were to do the completely optimal solution, they wouldn't be. But this is like comparing BH to 3-style for BLD. You sacrifice 1-2 moves on average for a vastly more fingertrick friendly EOline.

Second point: Again, this is completely false. If you switch directly from CFOP, maybe for the first week or two, it'll be worse. However, each method has a distinct turning style. Like CFOP users quickly regrip and can do RUF moves very quickly and Roux users are able to switch between R and r for 2nd block and typically turnslower and more fluidly, ZZ users have a distinct solving style as well. If you look at someone like Phil Yu, and watch his solves, you will see one of the best examples of a ZZ turning style out there. He shows how working with ZZ yields turning that utilizes both hands working independently, and turning with both hands at a very similar speed. If you master being able to use the left hand as fluidly as the right, saying "The RUL moveset makes fingertricks way worse" is totally untrue. As well, I would say regrips are vastly less common in ZZ than even CFOP, because you never have to rotate, so you only regrip if an alg depends on it. Also, because you are doing the 2 F2L pairs in the back from the front rather than rotating, that cuts out even more regrips because a ZZ user can fluidly go directly into the pairs, whereas a CFOP user would typically rotate to gain ergonomics that they otherwise lack due to the lack of EO. And the whole "it also makes the F2L too restricted" point is just totally insane. If anything, CFOP f2l is too restrictive because you always need to reverse any L or R move so as to not disturb the cross pieces, whereas with ZZ, the L and R layers are completely free to move. You don't do F or B moves because the best ways to do every case don't require it. Nearly all the cases that are best solved with F and B moves are the ones with a misoriented edge. I'm not going to cover the whole multislotting thing, because Pyjam already covered why ZZ has arguably better multislotting.

Third point: This is probably the point with the most legitimacy, but it matters far less than you make it out to be. I generally plan out a 3/4 cross to help with lookahead, which typically only adds 1-2 moves onto the EOline. This cuts the potential number of L2/R2s in half. And even with that, the few that I do are slightly worse than just an L or an R, but this is mainly seen as a major con by CFOP users simply because they aren't used to them. While rotations may not be a big deal to you, L2s and R2s aren't a big deal to me, and they tend to not really make the f2l any worse. The worst part about the unsolved D edges is typically the "blind spot" it creates, and if you either take note in inspection to see what that piece will be, it gets rid of the problem entirely.

Now, I don't think ZZ is without its flaws. I think that it requires much more experience in ZZ than CFOP to be able to effectively look into F2L in inspection time. It took me 2 years to be able to do it fairly well. However, the amazing LL, and the rotationless and really ergonomic (once you get used to RUL) F2L makes up for any shortcomings that it has compared to CFOP, and imo, makes it have a slight edge. CFOP has maintained popularity due to how many people are fast with it, as well as its easy transition from LBL. When you look at the grand scheme of things, CFOP is incredibly old compared to ZZ. It has been around for less time than some top speedcubers, and it's been truly developed for even less time than that. CFOP was developed throughout the 80s and published officially in 95, whereas ZZ was first published in 2006, and was used almost solely by Polish speedcubers for a long time due to it being published in Polish. It was only when Conrad Rider popularized it with his English guide did it pick up any steam, and that was in 2009. When you compare 8 years vs 18 years, it's obvious that CFOP is more developed. Even Roux was developed in 2003, and there are still vastly fewer people using it. ZZ is still an incredibly new method, and it still needs more time and more users to catch up with CFOP.

(Final note about the opening sentences, that's awesome, you should totally use this in some type of school debate paper. Debate freaking rocks. Sorry this was so long btw, just wanted to get all my points across. In retrospect, like 900 words may have been a bit much)
 
First point: No, EOline is not objectively less fingertricky than cross. I can consistently sub 2 my EOlines, and about 80-85% of the time, sub 1.5 them. I can say with absolute certainty, they are often quite fingertrick friendly. If you were to do the completely optimal solution, they wouldn't be. But this is like comparing BH to 3-style for BLD. You sacrifice 1-2 moves on average for a vastly more fingertrick friendly EOline.

Second point: Again, this is completely false. If you switch directly from CFOP, maybe for the first week or two, it'll be worse. However, each method has a distinct turning style. Like CFOP users quickly regrip and can do RUF moves very quickly and Roux users are able to switch between R and r for 2nd block and typically turnslower and more fluidly, ZZ users have a distinct solving style as well. If you look at someone like Phil Yu, and watch his solves, you will see one of the best examples of a ZZ turning style out there. He shows how working with ZZ yields turning that utilizes both hands working independently, and turning with both hands at a very similar speed. If you master being able to use the left hand as fluidly as the right, saying "The RUL moveset makes fingertricks way worse" is totally untrue. As well, I would say regrips are vastly less common in ZZ than even CFOP, because you never have to rotate, so you only regrip if an alg depends on it. Also, because you are doing the 2 F2L pairs in the back from the front rather than rotating, that cuts out even more regrips because a ZZ user can fluidly go directly into the pairs, whereas a CFOP user would typically rotate to gain ergonomics that they otherwise lack due to the lack of EO. And the whole "it also makes the F2L too restricted" point is just totally insane. If anything, CFOP f2l is too restrictive because you always need to reverse any L or R move so as to not disturb the cross pieces, whereas with ZZ, the L and R layers are completely free to move. You don't do F or B moves because the best ways to do every case don't require it. Nearly all the cases that are best solved with F and B moves are the ones with a misoriented edge. I'm not going to cover the whole multislotting thing, because Pyjam already covered why ZZ has arguably better multislotting.

Third point: This is probably the point with the most legitimacy, but it matters far less than you make it out to be. I generally plan out a 3/4 cross to help with lookahead, which typically only adds 1-2 moves onto the EOline. This cuts the potential number of L2/R2s in half. And even with that, the few that I do are slightly worse than just an L or an R, but this is mainly seen as a major con by CFOP users simply because they aren't used to them. While rotations may not be a big deal to you, L2s and R2s aren't a big deal to me, and they tend to not really make the f2l any worse. The worst part about the unsolved D edges is typically the "blind spot" it creates, and if you either take note in inspection to see what that piece will be, it gets rid of the problem entirely.

Now, I don't think ZZ is without its flaws. I think that it requires much more experience in ZZ than CFOP to be able to effectively look into F2L in inspection time. It took me 2 years to be able to do it fairly well. However, the amazing LL, and the rotationless and really ergonomic (once you get used to RUL) F2L makes up for any shortcomings that it has compared to CFOP, and imo, makes it have a slight edge. CFOP has maintained popularity due to how many people are fast with it, as well as its easy transition from LBL. When you look at the grand scheme of things, CFOP is incredibly old compared to ZZ. It has been around for less time than some top speedcubers, and it's been truly developed for even less time than that. CFOP was developed throughout the 80s and published officially in 95, whereas ZZ was first published in 2006, and was used almost solely by Polish speedcubers for a long time due to it being published in Polish. It was only when Conrad Rider popularized it with his English guide did it pick up any steam, and that was in 2009. When you compare 8 years vs 18 years, it's obvious that CFOP is more developed. Even Roux was developed in 2003, and there are still vastly fewer people using it. ZZ is still an incredibly new method, and it still needs more time and more users to catch up with CFOP.

(Final note about the opening sentences, that's awesome, you should totally use this in some type of school debate paper. Debate freaking rocks. Sorry this was so long btw, just wanted to get all my points across. In retrospect, like 900 words may have been a bit much)
My wording was a little clumsy, when I said restrictive I meant that the EO gives fewer ways to insert and create pairs and because of that makes CFOP style multislotting harder and less move efficient. For example you can't set up your next pair by doing a sledge. Now I realize this is pretty insignificant since ZZF2L is way different than CFOPF2L and the fewer number of F2L cases also means it's easier to predict your next pairs.
 
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