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Future WCA events

RoundUpCubing

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i dont think there is any need for any puzzles to go, i really dont understand the big deal with having 7x7 as an event, it is in my opinion the largest nxn that is not the exact same as all the others
removing 6x6 would make no sense without removing 7x7
15 puzzle is not a twisty puzzle afaik, and i really dont see a need for it, never tried it but i really dont think it solves like a twisty puzzle would, so im gonna say no to that
i think FTO would be really cool, but the main thing holding it back is hardware, iirc theres only one mass produced (correct me if im wrong). this is the lanlan one, and lanlan isnt the biggest company, so supply vs demand would be out the roof. if there were more ftos then id say hell yeah
 

Kit Clement

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The relative quality of hardware will never be an issue for something being an event. The best Skewb in early 2014 was a LanLan too. There are other FTO options as well (Diansheng and Maru, at least). If it becomes official, the hardware will follow. While it's gaining popularity, FTO really just needs more people to start solving the puzzle and join the community. Organic interest is a puzzle is what will lead to it becoming official. Better hardware would definitely support that, but it's not a requirement to get it added.
 

BenChristman1

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The relative quality of hardware will never be an issue for something being an event. The best Skewb in early 2014 was a LanLan too. There are other FTO options as well (Diansheng and Maru, at least). If it becomes official, the hardware will follow. While it's gaining popularity, FTO really just needs more people to start solving the puzzle and join the community. Organic interest is a puzzle is what will lead to it becoming official. Better hardware would definitely support that, but it's not a requirement to get it added.
I’m not sure if that’s necessarily true. I know this is the case for only one event, but clock hardware was terrible up until a few months ago. I’m just not sure if manufacturers will want to go through the work to come up with a design for a completely new puzzle.
 

Silky

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I’m not sure if that’s necessarily true. I know this is the case for only one event, but clock hardware was terrible up until a few months ago. I’m just not sure if manufacturers will want to go through the work to come up with a design for a completely new puzzle.
Clock is a bit different since there hasn't been a ton of incentive to innovate. Since it was an original WCA event it'll never have the momentum that newer events like FTO will.
 

RoundUpCubing

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I’m not sure if that’s necessarily true. I know this is the case for only one event, but clock hardware was terrible up until a few months ago. I’m just not sure if manufacturers will want to go through the work to come up with a design for a completely new puzzle.
If fto would get added, a lot of people would want to instantly hop on the boat for easy wrs/crs/nrs, so everyone would want to buy a good one, which means that for the first year or so demand would likely be very high. At the same time, the cubing community is much bigger than it was in 2014 when skewb got added, so thats even more demand. Free money.
 

BenChristman1

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To all the people saying we should remove events:

Why? I would like to know why you want events like 2x2, 7x7 and Clock removed. Remember the backlash that the WCA got after Feet got removed? It’s because people put time into practicing these events, but now you just think it’s a good idea to strip away their records and other achievements? So why would you think it’s good to essentially throw all their hard work down the drain? I personally love 2x2 and Clock, and there are plenty other people who do too, so believe it or not, people actually do like these events. Just because you may not like an event doesn’t mean that everybody hates it. I hate skewb. I know that @u Cube loves it, but is it fair for me to say that we should get rid of it because it sucks, but he has put a crazy amount of time and effort into the event? No. Just no.

On the topic of adding events (which is what this thread is supposed to be about, may I add), it looks like pretty much everybody thinks that FTO would be a good thing to add, and possibly different order minx puzzles. I think that it would be awesome to extend the minx lines so that people can say that they specialize in the (mega/pyra)minx-like puzzles, just like people can say that they specialize in NxNs.
 
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DNF_Cuber

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To all the people saying we should remove events:

Why? I would like to know why you want events like 2x2, 7x7 and Clock removed. Remember the backlash that the WCA got after Feet got removed? It’s because people put time into practicing these events, but now you just think it’s a good idea to strip away their records and other achievements? So why would you think it’s good to essentially throw all their hard work down the drain? I personally love 2x2 and Clock, and there are plenty other people who do too, so believe it or not, people actually do like these events. Just because you may not like an event doesn’t mean that everybody hates it. I hate skewb. I know that @u Cube loves it, but is it fair for me to say that we should get rid of it because it sucks, but he has put a crazy amount of time and effort into the event? No. Just no.

On the side of adding events (which is what this thread is supposed to be about, may I add), it looks like pretty much everybody thinks that FTO would be a good thing to add, and possibly different order minx puzzles. I think that it would be awesome to extend the minx lines so that people can say that they specialize in the (mega/pyra)minx-like puzzles, just like people can say that they specialize in NxNs.
I feel like 7x7 adds nothing, and the people that specialize in it have the skills for other big cubes. With Clock, Skewb, or 2x2, The solving methods are totally unique to those events, and don't carry over to other events.
 

Alex Davison

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I feel like 7x7 adds nothing, and the people that specialize in it have the skills for other big cubes. With Clock, Skewb, or 2x2, The solving methods are totally unique to those events, and don't carry over to other events.
agreed. 2x2 - 6x6 is the real "meat" of NxN's, 7x7 is just something extra. I'm not gonna start cheering for 7x7 to be removed, but if it gives room for other (unique) events to enter the WCA then I'm fine with 7x7 gone
 

Kit Clement

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I'm mostly being facetious about removing 2x2, I also would prefer not removing any events without valid reasons like was done for Magic for the magics. Removing events because of silly reasons like "redundancy" or other subjective reasons holds no weight.

However, not recognizing single records or rankings for the ultra-fast events like 2x2/Pyra/Skewb should be seriously considered. They reflect scramble luck and the number of competitions you attend far more than skill. Publishing records/rankings for these gives the false impression to those who don't know better that they are a valid reflection of skill. I realize that this happens to some degree with other events, as nobody should argue that Yusheng Du is the best 3x3x3 solver in the world because of one solve, but there's a fundamental difference between getting lucky on substeps of a 3x3x3 solve to get WR and getting a U-perm on skewb to get WR. The former still requires being highly skilled at the event, the latter does not.
 

Heath_Flick05

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To all the people saying we should remove events:

Why? I would like to know why you want events like 2x2, 7x7 and Clock removed. Remember the backlash that the WCA got after Feet got removed? It’s because people put time into practicing these events, but now you just think it’s a good idea to strip away their records and other achievements? So why would you think it’s good to essentially throw all their hard work down the drain? I personally love 2x2 and Clock, and there are plenty other people who do too, so believe it or not, people actually do like these events. Just because you may not like an event doesn’t mean that everybody hates it. I hate skewb. I know that @u Cube loves it, but is it fair for me to say that we should get rid of it because it sucks, but he has put a crazy amount of time and effort into the event? No. Just no.

On the topic of adding events (which is what this thread is supposed to be about, may I add), it looks like pretty much everybody thinks that FTO would be a good thing to add, and possibly different order minx puzzles. I think that it would be awesome to extend the minx lines so that people can say that they specialize in the (mega/pyra)minx-like puzzles, just like people can say that they specialize in NxNs.
I agree that people not liking an event shouldn't be grounds for its removal, but i believe that the two events that contribute absolutely nothing to speedsolving are 7x7 and 5BLD. 7x7 is basically 6x6 but bigger, with fixed centers, and different parity. 5BLD only adds more pieces onto 4BLD, and isn't widely practiced. Furthermore, i don't think the removal of these events would strip people of their hard work, as skill from 7x7 and 5BLD translates down to their lower-order counterparts. However, i don't think this logic applies to clock and 2x2. The skills required for being fast at clock are completely different from those demanded by any other event. Clock is completely unique as an event and therefore, in my opinion, should stay. 2x2 is completely different from any other NxN. it requires the memorization of a crazy amount of algs, fast turning, and the ability to foresee most of, if not all, of a solve. Overall, i think that 7x7 and 5BLD could be removed to make room for more unique, interesting, and diversifying events like FTO, Master Pyraminx, and Redi Cube.
 

Kit Clement

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I agree that people not liking an event shouldn't be grounds for its removal, but i believe that the two events that contribute absolutely nothing to speedsolving are 7x7 and 5BLD. 7x7 is basically 6x6 but bigger, with fixed centers, and different parity. 5BLD only adds more pieces onto 4BLD, and isn't widely practiced. Furthermore, i don't think the removal of these events would strip people of their hard work, as skill from 7x7 and 5BLD translates down to their lower-order counterparts. However, i don't think this logic applies to clock and 2x2. The skills required for being fast at clock are completely different from those demanded by any other event. Clock is completely unique as an event and therefore, in my opinion, should stay. 2x2 is completely different from any other NxN. it requires the memorization of a crazy amount of algs, fast turning, and the ability to foresee most of, if not all, of a solve. Overall, i think that 7x7 and 5BLD could be removed to make room for more unique, interesting, and diversifying events like FTO, Master Pyraminx, and Redi Cube.
Have you ever tried BLD events? 5BLD may have similar piece types to 4BLD, but if that's your only reasoning, why not remove 5x5x5 while we're at it? The memory skills needed for 5BLD are different than 4BLD at a high level - much of 4BLD can be done with mostly short-term memory, whereas 5BLD pushes into long-term memory like MBLD, although requires 100% accuracy and emphasizes speed over quantity.

Popularity of an event should always be put into context of the barrier to entry. Sure, lots of people are into 2x2x2/pyra/skewb, but it takes almost no effort to begin solving these puzzles. Difficulty/depth are valid qualities of an event, and if we solely used popularity to gauge new events, we'd just have shallow events like these.

Additionally, there should be no reason to remove events without reasons that go beyond redundancy and other subjective reasons. Rather than contract events, I'd prefer to expand the event lists. The only reason people think that there's a limit for events is to be able to hold them all at major championships, but I'd imagine that many would be ecstatic to have more events at local competitions even if they weren't at major championships. Tiered systems that define what events must/may(/cannot?) be held at majors would eliminate any real need to talk about removing events, just to talk about what is necessary at a major championship.
 
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BenChristman1

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Additionally, there should be no reason to remove events without reasons that go beyond redundancy and other subjective reasons. Rather than contract events, I'd prefer to expand the event lists. The only reason people think that there's a limit for events is to be able to hold them all at major championships, but I'd imagine that many would be ecstatic to have more events at local competitions even if they weren't at major championships. Tiered systems that define what events must/may(/cannot?) be held at majors would eliminate any real need to talk about removing events, just to talk about what is necessary at a major championship.
I agree that the reasons that people are giving for removing events are not great, but I couldn't really find a way to put it into words, but you did a great job, so thank you. I also agree that there is no reason for removing events if the WCA would implement a tiered system. I'd never thought of/considered this idea before listening to the couple episodes of LBL that you talked about this in, and I think that a tiered event system is an amazing idea! (Assuming there are 3 tiers,) tier 1 events (10-12 of them) would have to be held at championships, tier 2 could do every other (for example, if 5BLD was a tier 2 event, it would be held at Worlds 2021, not at 2023, then have it again at 2025), which would keep the number of events at a Worlds down to 16-18 every year, which would be manageable (obviously, I've never organized a large comp, but it has been done in the last 3 Worlds). And tier 3 events would not be allowed to be held at championships, but people could go crazy with 150-200 person comps (post-Covid, of course) that have more obscure events that the WCA still wants to recognize. Again, you have said this all on your podcast, and I agree 100%. I think that most people that practice the less popular/"less important" events would be able to understand that not many people do their event, and they would be able to accept that it should be a tier 2/3 event.
 

thorsilver

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I'd be in favour of FTO, Redi Cube, Kilominx and Curvy Copter.

FTO brings in a new category of puzzle (octahedrons), the solve is interesting and different in character from the cubes or dodecahedrons. The hardware is awful, so the fact that so many people still persevere in this event despite that really shows the level of commitment in that community.

Redi Cube is fun and quick yet non-trivial. The solve is basically intuitive which makes it very accessible to new cubers. The hardware is good too, the Eight Petals Cube is factory-magnetised. There is a random-state scrambler available too.

The Curvy Copter would add the WCA's first edge-turning puzzle and first jumbling puzzle. With shapeshifting and jumbling there's a huge amount of variety and challenge in the solve. There is a random-state scrambler available. The hardware is a bit antiquated, but at least the LanLan is pretty serviceable after some break-in. The Qiyi Clover Cube could be a good alternative I think -- the hardware is very good, and the solve is a bit quicker due to the lack of corners, but it still shapeshifts and jumbles.

The Kilominx is a fast and fun event, but not very scramble-dependent since the state-space is much larger than the 3x3 (2.35 x 10^25 positions). Hardware is OK, random-state scramblers exist and there is a large community of solvers. I'd also like to see the Master Kilominx, but then I don't mind longer solves. The Shengshou Master Kilominx is quite good, and the solve is very enjoyable -- probably my favourite minx puzzle these days.
 

Kit Clement

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I would love to see Curvy Copter added in theory. However, there's some huge practical issues with the event that I've mentioned several times in other threads:

1. There's not a good way to display scramble images of the puzzle. This is an issue that can be solved, but I imagine the solution will make it very hard to read the scramble images effectively and check the state of the puzzle in jumbled form. SEE's solution of checking before leaving cubeshape is not going to be good enough for the WCA, as it cannot verify mistakes after that point.

2. Transporting the puzzle from the scrambling table is going to be incredibly difficult. The puzzle has no guaranteed resting spot that will prevent moves from being made by the table or inside the cube cover. Square-1 and Clock are already big problems with this, and at the very least these events have a consistent flat face to lie the puzzle down on, or for Square-1 have the insert solution to prevent turns. Curvy Copter will be a nightmare to run, especially given how few are actually familiar with the puzzle enough to know how to transport it and place it without moves being applied.

These two problems seem really difficult for Curvy Copter to overcome, especially the second one. Once more, the community interest in solving curvy copter is incredibly low currently, so until that takes off, I don't see this happening anytime soon, if ever.
 

thorsilver

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I would love to see Curvy Copter added in theory. However, there's some huge practical issues with the event that I've mentioned several times in other threads:

1. There's not a good way to display scramble images of the puzzle. This is an issue that can be solved, but I imagine the solution will make it very hard to read the scramble images effectively and check the state of the puzzle in jumbled form. SEE's solution of checking before leaving cubeshape is not going to be good enough for the WCA, as it cannot verify mistakes after that point.

2. Transporting the puzzle from the scrambling table is going to be incredibly difficult. The puzzle has no guaranteed resting spot that will prevent moves from being made by the table or inside the cube cover. Square-1 and Clock are already big problems with this, and at the very least these events have a consistent flat face to lie the puzzle down on, or for Square-1 have the insert solution to prevent turns. Curvy Copter will be a nightmare to run, especially given how few are actually familiar with the puzzle enough to know how to transport it and place it without moves being applied.
Three options come to mind:

1) Scramble the puzzle with jumbling, but no shapeshifting -- i.e., simply stop the scramble where the SEE scrambler asks for verification. This would still create significantly more challenging solves than non-jumbling scrambles.

2) Setup the scrambler so that one face of the shapeshifted puzzle is always non-shapeshifted, allowing the puzzle to sit stable on that side.

3) Implement 3D images of the scrambled puzzle. Something like this, with the addition of shapeshifting moves.

If we did (1), then transport is no longer an issue. It's not completely ideal to stay only in cube shape, but the jumbling aspect in itself is still a significant new addition to the WCA, while shapeshifting is already represented by the Square-1.

Likewise with (2), transport would then be fine, but the puzzle wouldn't be fully shapeshifted. Again I don't particularly view this as a deal-breaker, and altering the scramblers in this way would be pretty easy.

If we did (3), transport would still be an issue, but given that it's vanishingly unlikely that moving the puzzle to the table would create enough unwanted moves to return the puzzle all the way to cube shape, we could just live with it? A Curvy Copter solve is massively longer than a Square-1 solve, so a couple of unwanted moves isn't nearly as impactful. The WCA already allows incorrect scrambles of other long events (6x6, 7x7 or Megaminx) to be used at the discretion of the Delegate, so the same common-sense rule could apply to the Curvy Copter.

These two problems seem really difficult for Curvy Copter to overcome, especially the second one. Once more, the community interest in solving curvy copter is incredibly low currently, so until that takes off, I don't see this happening anytime soon, if ever.
I'm not sure I agree with community interest being 'incredibly low', when the puzzle has SEE representation, several alg sets generated and a random-state scrambler. The overwhelming majority of puzzles don't have that level of effort applied to them. It's also a very well-known non-WCA puzzle and exists in many people's collections even if they don't speed-solve it, so I suspect if the WCA would support this puzzle, there would be a large potential community out there.
 

OreKehStrah

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I would love to see Curvy Copter added in theory. However, there's some huge practical issues with the event that I've mentioned several times in other threads:

1. There's not a good way to display scramble images of the puzzle. This is an issue that can be solved, but I imagine the solution will make it very hard to read the scramble images effectively and check the state of the puzzle in jumbled form. SEE's solution of checking before leaving cubeshape is not going to be good enough for the WCA, as it cannot verify mistakes after that point.

2. Transporting the puzzle from the scrambling table is going to be incredibly difficult. The puzzle has no guaranteed resting spot that will prevent moves from being made by the table or inside the cube cover. Square-1 and Clock are already big problems with this, and at the very least these events have a consistent flat face to lie the puzzle down on, or for Square-1 have the insert solution to prevent turns. Curvy Copter will be a nightmare to run, especially given how few are actually familiar with the puzzle enough to know how to transport it and place it without moves being applied.

These two problems seem really difficult for Curvy Copter to overcome, especially the second one. Once more, the community interest in solving curvy copter is incredibly low currently, so until that takes off, I don't see this happening anytime soon, if ever.
I mentioned this in the CC discussion post but my idea for tracking the CC state after jumbling out of cube shape is having each position of an edge have a number 1-6 and then a box will have a list of what rotated position each edge is in instead of having to check the shape of the puzzle. I kinda suspect that it might be best for future CC solving and scrambling to just leave the puzzle in cube shape since my modded puzzle can usually fudge through moves a stock puzzle can’t. For a comp should this be allowed? Not by the typical rules of a puzzle can’t make nonstandard movements, but in effect that would also be banning modding on the CC.
 

Kit Clement

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Three options come to mind:

1) Scramble the puzzle with jumbling, but no shapeshifting -- i.e., simply stop the scramble where the SEE scrambler asks for verification. This would still create significantly more challenging solves than non-jumbling scrambles.

2) Setup the scrambler so that one face of the shapeshifted puzzle is always non-shapeshifted, allowing the puzzle to sit stable on that side.

3) Implement 3D images of the scrambled puzzle. Something like this, with the addition of shapeshifting moves.

If we did (1), then transport is no longer an issue. It's not completely ideal to stay only in cube shape, but the jumbling aspect in itself is still a significant new addition to the WCA, while shapeshifting is already represented by the Square-1.

Likewise with (2), transport would then be fine, but the puzzle wouldn't be fully shapeshifted. Again I don't particularly view this as a deal-breaker, and altering the scramblers in this way would be pretty easy.

If we did (3), transport would still be an issue, but given that it's vanishingly unlikely that moving the puzzle to the table would create enough unwanted moves to return the puzzle all the way to cube shape, we could just live with it? A Curvy Copter solve is massively longer than a Square-1 solve, so a couple of unwanted moves isn't nearly as impactful. The WCA already allows incorrect scrambles of other long events (6x6, 7x7 or Megaminx) to be used at the discretion of the Delegate, so the same common-sense rule could apply to the Curvy Copter.



I'm not sure I agree with community interest being 'incredibly low', when the puzzle has SEE representation, several alg sets generated and a random-state scrambler. The overwhelming majority of puzzles don't have that level of effort applied to them. It's also a very well-known non-WCA puzzle and exists in many people's collections even if they don't speed-solve it, so I suspect if the WCA would support this puzzle, there would be a large potential community out there.
I think that option 1 definitely addresses both fundamental problems. Cubeshape on that puzzle is probably my least favorite part of the solve anyway, and jumbling is really what makes it unique. Option 2 seems quite bizarre, and it would seem to always produce cubeshapes that are fairly trivial, so I don't see it as a worthwhile step away from option 1. Option 3 seems difficult from the point that many competitions print their scrambles, and 2d projections of a 3D image don't always look ideal. I also don't know the current feasibility of implementing these kinds of images into TNoodle software.

In terms of unofficial events, Curvy Copter is definitely lacking the community interest right now. The competition here on SS seems to rarely go above 3 weekly competitors, and many of the people who did push their times down on the puzzle aren't solving it any more (Aedan Bryant and Walker Welch come to mind). I'm pretty sure I'm ranked 3rd or 4th on the SS rankings right now, and I've done very little practice to achieve those times. Master Pyraminx, Kilominx, and especially FTO have much more community support and interest right now, and don't present any significant logistical issues. I don't think it's impossible for Curvy Copter to become WCA official, I just think it has a long road, especially in comparison to other new puzzle candidates.
 
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