Daniel Wu
Premium Member
That's pretty cool. Your website really has a lot of good stuff on it.
Full OLL time gain
- Thread starter Rudinie
- Start date
rubiknewbie
Veteran
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2009
- Messages
- 593
There's not much argument against learning full OLL since it is:
1. so easy to learn
2. so easy to recognise therefore little pause
3. you get to use them so often in actual solves.
The effort to learn them is worth it.
There's more argument against whether you need stuff like COLL (recognition not as easy and not as fast, doesn't show up as frequently in actual solves) and even more extreme ZBLL (even worse recognition, even worse algorithms, and show up even less frequently).
But for something as basic as OLLs, just go learn it man.
1. so easy to learn
2. so easy to recognise therefore little pause
3. you get to use them so often in actual solves.
The effort to learn them is worth it.
There's more argument against whether you need stuff like COLL (recognition not as easy and not as fast, doesn't show up as frequently in actual solves) and even more extreme ZBLL (even worse recognition, even worse algorithms, and show up even less frequently).
But for something as basic as OLLs, just go learn it man.
FatBoyXPC
Veteran
In all reality, if your PLL recognition and recall is pretty good, I suggest learning full OLL (starting with the 6 dot cases). With the dot cases, you have to do both EO algs then whatever OCLL you end up with (without learning the alg for these cases), which means you'd benefit most by learning these 6 algs. The problem is when you learn OLL too fast, your recognition and recall become horrible, and you end up freezing (like I do). I'm on the verge of sub20 but I know for a fact I wouldn't end up with a lot of the 25/26 solves I get due to OLL pause (my slow N and G perms don't help either).
My advice to OLL (I'm no guru or anything remember, this is just how I wish i could have done it):
Learn what simple tricks you can gain from Sune/Anti-Sune in random OLL shapes (might end up with an easier case, such as OLL 41 and 42). Learn what fat sune / anti sune will do to random OLL shapes. Learn what the EO algs will do, etc. You should know things like the two T shapes (45 is just the F RUR'U' F') and OLL 33 is just Sexy Move + Sledge Hammer (RUR'U' R'FRF'). There are a lot of nifty tricks like this that can help your OLL randomly.
I suggest learning the hardest OLL cases first. This is because these are the cases that you need to be stuck into your muscle memory (since they're the hardest they take the most work). When you learn the harder cases, it's all downhill from there. Most OLLs are setup moves trigger of some sort anti setup move. I have an OLL spreadsheet that lets you know if you have learned the case or not, it's sort of like a trainer. This sheet gives you the probability of each case, and I suggest learning the 1/218 cases first since they are the rarest of cases.
Most people will probably tell you to learn the easy cases first since there are so many of them. The difficulty with that is that you might end up being overwhelmed by recog if you do that, since so many easy cases end up being easy to recall but recog ends up getting fuzzy if you learn too many too soon.
My advice to OLL (I'm no guru or anything remember, this is just how I wish i could have done it):
Learn what simple tricks you can gain from Sune/Anti-Sune in random OLL shapes (might end up with an easier case, such as OLL 41 and 42). Learn what fat sune / anti sune will do to random OLL shapes. Learn what the EO algs will do, etc. You should know things like the two T shapes (45 is just the F RUR'U' F') and OLL 33 is just Sexy Move + Sledge Hammer (RUR'U' R'FRF'). There are a lot of nifty tricks like this that can help your OLL randomly.
I suggest learning the hardest OLL cases first. This is because these are the cases that you need to be stuck into your muscle memory (since they're the hardest they take the most work). When you learn the harder cases, it's all downhill from there. Most OLLs are setup moves trigger of some sort anti setup move. I have an OLL spreadsheet that lets you know if you have learned the case or not, it's sort of like a trainer. This sheet gives you the probability of each case, and I suggest learning the 1/218 cases first since they are the rarest of cases.
Most people will probably tell you to learn the easy cases first since there are so many of them. The difficulty with that is that you might end up being overwhelmed by recog if you do that, since so many easy cases end up being easy to recall but recog ends up getting fuzzy if you learn too many too soon.
ElectricDoodie
Veteran
Wow, this was really helpful.
I'm finishing up my PLLs and F2L, and was going to move into OLLs whenever I was finished, and this answered pretty much all the questions I had. Esepcially the paragraph about the Dot Cases. Those are the ones I want to get rid of first, since they take the most time for me to do.
I also believe learning the rare/harder ones would be best, so that they are stuck in your brain since the beginning. If you wait until the end, you might had so many algs in your head, that it's harder to remember it lager on. Especially if it's a rare one, which you won't see often. That one time you see it, you might've already forgotten how it goes.
Rudinie
Regular
Thanks a lot for the eloborate answer, i will have to read it a couple more times i think to fully understand but the basics are clear. The sheet you are talking about, is that this one: http://www.kungfoomanchu.com/guides/andy-klise-3x3x3-oll-new.pdf
The numbers on there are they universal?
From this sheet i now know the numbers(in order of appearance on the sheet): 27,26,22,21,24,25,23,57,28,44,43,48,37,7,8,45,33,51,1,20
There are a couple more that i know more or less but i need some time to think about it, can't execute them fast yet.
Akuma
Veteran
If you ask me, learning 51 algorithms just to save 1-2 seconds is a complete waste of time...
Rudinie
Regular
Well, in that logic, learning any algorithm to get a little bit faster is a complete waste of time. That attitude i think will not get you very far. (yeah, sure there are people doing sub 10 with 2look oll but i'm quite sure they optimised every other step of the solve and that must have taken them more effort then just learning 51 algs)
FatBoyXPC
Veteran
Akuma, you must not be worried about your times then. 1-2 seconds is a lot of time when you get down to sub12, or sub10. When you're talking 1-2 seconds at sub10, that's 10-20%, that's a huge gap, especially if it makes the difference between 8 seconds and 6 seconds.
Rudinie: Yes, you can visit the speedsolving wiki OLL page to see the numbers as well. There is also a list of algorithms if you don't like the ones on the PDF.
Rudinie: Yes, you can visit the speedsolving wiki OLL page to see the numbers as well. There is also a list of algorithms if you don't like the ones on the PDF.
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Joker
Veteran
Lulz I average aroung 22ish but I know full OLL and PLL. Lolz my cross-F2L transition fails and I need to work on lookahead.
ElectricDoodie
Veteran
:fp
What do you average? Because a 1-2 seconds difference doesn't matter, when someone is averaging 50 seconds. But, once they are competing at 8 seconds, 2 seconds is a huge difference. In fact, for those who can average 8 seconds, a 2 seconds difference would get them a World Record.
When you're fighting in the decimals of seconds, to win/attain World Records, 1-2 seconds is a lot, and makes a whole lot of difference.
Rpotts
Veteran
Granted, the few cubers who can sub10 all know OLL (save some Roux-ers) by now, and if they didn't they probably wouldn't shave 2 seconds with OLL, since they're likely turning so fast they can do 2 look sub 2(fazlol)
But yea akuma, your outlook seems poor. I learned OLL because I wanted to get faster and I was sick of getting 24 move OLLs (no edges plus Headlights w/e)
Now that I know OLL I'm glad I do, it mixes solves up and reduces the repetitive feel of 2look OLL. It also makes what may have been a lucky solve, such as just a sune OLL if you use 4LLL, full step (arguably lucky lol)
The algs get easier and easier as you learn them, and many of them can be solved using combinations of moves you already know, such as sune variants, sexy moves etc. I started learning OLL when I was at ~24 seconds, back in April. I didn't finish learning until early this summer, but I took my time. Theres no rush, and theres nothing wrong with starting to learn some algs, then taking a break and getting used to the ones you know, before you move on and learn too many at once.
ArcticxWolf
Regular
Learn algs early so you are already fast at recognizing and executing them when others with similar times will just be learning them and will be slow.
FatBoyXPC
Veteran
I completely agree with ArcticWolf. Learn them while you still 'suck' then by the time you get to where it's 'respectable' you already have the recog and recall for OLL while all the others are learning it. You'll blow them away at that point 
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