New ZZ Variant: ZZ - Profane Koala (ZZ-D with 4 algs)

Could someone link to Porky NOT with page numbers?
As a rule of thumb, NEVER LINK WITH PAGE NUMBERS! I have more posts per page than 10 as do many people.

Thanks for the interest.



EDIT:
Eventually found it. It's similar but not the same. I have difficulty figuring out what your post is saying, and this method seems a bit more optimal move-count.

To Phil's point, maybe recog like CPLS but with some adjustments:
Place the two corners in DBR and UBL, and recog the corners UFR, UFL, and UBR. From here I think we should be able to recog CP.
 
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I thought this was a joke considering that in these days there are many people posting new threads about new methods, and I thought Phil was aware that this had already been proposed. If it isn't so, it's one of the cases when different people discover the same thing in different moments (even one year ago, when I found this approach, Robert Yau said he thought of the same thing once).
anyway, in my signature there is a link to a post where I explain what I think is an improvement to the method.
 
This approach seems to be the easiest one to think up. That's not to say that it's bad, but it's definitely not as good as I'd expect ZZ-d to be. As I already offered to Porkynator, some possible improvements to this method include: placing the DR corners and isolating the left block pieces to U and L after eoline, placing different corner pairs in DR or UL to identify orientation, and using CxLL recognition to identify U-layer CP. I average ~17 seconds with this variant.

But honestly, Porkynator's new ZZ-d approach blows all of the other variants out of the water.
 
I thought this was just standard ZZ-d? Or is the standard the one that uses CPLS?

For step 4 recognitions, recognize the CLL case and you'll just have to know what swaps each CLL case needs.

@ ellwd: I'd say it blows all other ZZ-d Varients out of the water, but I think standard ZZ is still just as good if not better.
 
Porky, I wouldn't expect you to notice these, but please refer to the following links: 1 and 2.

This stuff isn't "new" as in "it's just recently discovered". We just labeled it as "new" since we think it's somewhat new to the general public. We've been looking at a ZZ variant that pushed corners around to simplify CP since early 2011.

I also recently learned that Petrus tried to do something like this with his method early on too.
 
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StachuK1992 said:
To Phil's point, maybe recog like CPLS but with some adjustments:
Place the two corners in DBR and UBL, and recog the corners UFR, UFL, and UBR. From here I think we should be able to recog CP.
Click to expand...

I looked into this today and here's what I found. It seems fairly simple, and I don't think I'm missing anything. As far as algs, I have no clue.

CP Recognition

1. Place 2 D corners in UBL and DBR (2 moves)
.......-Make note of the corner in DBR
2. Examine colors on FRU corner
.......-Find the other two corners with the same colors
.......-This will make an L shape on either the F, R, or U face
.......-If the L is on:
..............R or U, do an adjacent corner swap alg
..............F, move to step 3
3. Determine the case
.......a. The DBR corner is placed correctly:
..............-FRU and FLU are permuted correctly => opposite swap alg
..............-FRU and FLU swapped => correct CP
.......b. The DBR corner is incorrect:
..............-FRU and FLU are permuted correctly => correct CP
..............-FRU and FLU swapped => opposite swap alg


Pros:
-fast setup
-easy recognition
-little time wasted if CP is correct

Cons:
-must be done after first block (ZZ) instead of beginning of solve

I think that there would be two variations for this CP recognition: CP only (for ZZ), and EO/CP (for Petrus and CFOP)
As I mentioned in an earlier post, it doesn't really make sense to do CP after the first block. Instead it would probably just be faster to stick with PLL or CLL. Also, it doesn't really make sense to do CP if you're not going to do 2GLL. My recommended finish after this step would be Advanced Phasing + special Winter Variation algs for 2GLL (see my other thread on Phasing + WV). I feel like that three/four step method could be very efficient and fast. It would go like this:
1. 2x2x3 block
2. a. Place 2 D corners
.....b. EO/CP
3. Right block and phasing
4. WV

Example Solve:

B' L F R B' F U2 L' y' 2x2x3 (8/8)
R U Place D corners (2/10)
F' U' F EO/CP (3/13)
R2 U R' U2 R U2 R U R' U2 F2L (10/23)
U R U' R' Edge/Corner Phasing (4/27)
U R U2 R' U2 WV alg (5/31)

This example has an extremely low move count, but it shows the full potential of this method. Current WV algs average around 8 moves, but the new set for this would average more. Also, F2L will vary and I haven't figured out all the cases for EO/CP. Here's what I estimate:

2x2x3 ~13 moves
Place D corners 2 moves
EO/CP ~5 moves
F2L ~10 moves
Phasing 6 moves
WV alg ~10 moves
Total Avg: ~46 moves
 
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This is a good idea. I have been thinking about orienting and/or permuting 2 corners in Roux, but this is new to me. Do you actually use this?

AHombaker said:
I looked into this today and here's what I found. It seems fairly simple, and I don't think I'm missing anything. As far as algs, I have no clue.

CP Recognition

1. Place 2 D corners in UBL and DBR (2 moves)
.......-Make note of the corner in DBR
2. Examine colors on FRU corner
.......-Find the other two corners with the same colors
.......-This will make an L shape on either the F, R, or U face
.......-If the L is on:
..............R or U, do an adjacent corner swap alg
..............F, move to step 3
3. Determine the case
.......a. The DBR corner is placed correctly:
..............-FRU and FLU are permuted correctly => opposite swap alg
..............-FRU and FLU swapped => correct CP
.......b. The DBR corner is incorrect:
..............-FRU and FLU are permuted correctly => correct CP
..............-FRU and FLU swapped => opposite swap alg


Pros:
-fast setup
-easy recognition
-little time wasted if CP is correct

Cons:
-must be done after first block (ZZ) instead of beginning of solve

I think that there would be two variations for this CP recognition: CP only (for ZZ), and EO/CP (for Petrus and CFOP)
As I mentioned in an earlier post, it doesn't really make sense to do CP after the first block. Instead it would probably just be faster to stick with PLL or CLL. Also, it doesn't really make sense to do CP if you're not going to do 2GLL. My recommended finish after this step would be Advanced Phasing + special Winter Variation algs for 2GLL (see my other thread on Phasing + WV). I feel like that three/four step method could be very efficient and fast. It would go like this:
1. 2x2x3 block
2. a. Place 2 D corners
.....b. EO/CP
3. Right block and phasing
4. WV

Example Solve:

B' L F R B' F U2 L' y' 2x2x3 (8/8)
R U Place D corners (2/10)
F' U' F EO/CP (3/13)
R2 U R' U2 R U2 R U R' U2 F2L (10/23)
U R U' R' Edge/Corner Phasing (4/27)
U R U2 R' U2 WV alg (5/31)

This example has an extremely low move count, but it shows the full potential of this method. Current WV algs average around 8 moves, but the new set for this would average more. Also, F2L will vary and I haven't figured out all the cases for EO/CP. Here's what I estimate:

2x2x3 ~13 moves
Place D corners 2 moves
EO/CP ~5 moves
F2L ~10 moves
Phasing 6 moves
WV alg ~10 moves
Total Avg: ~46 moves
Click to expand...

2x2x3 block can be solved in fewer moves than 13.
 
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although i think its just the good old zz-porky, this getting some attention might get me back into cubing. i had many thoughts about recognising CP back when it came up in the ZZ/ZB Home thread. I went with some color patterns which were recognisable at at ablink but required more intuition than actual case learning... i might sort it out and write it down if i get motivated to cube some more!

thanks for the thread
Petro
 
I just worked out a recognition method that is fairly simple. The algs are the same ones asmallkitten posted in the OP.
First solve the EOLine and right F2L block.
Next push the 2 D corners onto the D layer, regardless of position or orientation.
Now the tricky part of determining U layer CP, the part that i worked out:
1. Turn the U layer until the corner that belongs in the UFL is in the UFL.
2. Look at the Corner in the UFR and the corner in the UBR, see how many of the two corners are solve, there are possibilities:
A:The Corners are both in the correct positions. Meaning that twisting UFR and UBR would solve them both.
You have good Corners
B:Only 1 of the two Corners are in the right position. It can either be on the Front layer, or the Right layer:
If it is on the Front layer, then UBL and UBR need to swap.
If it is on the Right Layer, then UBR and UFL need to swap.
C:Neither of the two corners are in the right position. Look at the 2 corners, if you see two pairs of opposite colors you have a diagonal swap. If you see 2 stickers (one from each corner) that are the same color (not the top color, some other color), look at the UFL corner and the UBL corner, if they have two same color stickers (again not the top color, some other color), then UFL and UBL need to swap, otherwise UBR and UBL need to swap.

Sorry if that was confusing. Send me a PM if you have questions, or ask them here on this thread. I think this is fairly easy once you memorize the way to do this.

-IQubic
 
Hello everybody,

I am very interested in this method, so I took a good long look at it. I am not sure if it's suitable for speed, but I've always been interested in methods that do a certain step very early in the solve (Just like ZZ does EO at the beginning). The idea that CP can be solved with "half a commutator" is just great!

Basically, after looking at this for a long while, I think I found a decent way to recognize it. I can now do it slowly while looking at my notes. At first I thought I would have to track the cycles, to recognize one out of many cases (like in BLD). Fortunately, it turns out to be easier than that. It´s still quite hard, and to fully recognize it quickly, I think a cuber would have to be trained to know the 3rd color of a corner by looking at 2 stickers, because 3 out of 4 relevant pieces have only 2 stickers visible (If you want to recognize it in 1 look, without rotating the cube).

Anyway, here is a description of how I would recognize this.

Scenario 1
So first, the case where DRB corner is at DRB, and the DRF corner is at ULB. Set this case up on a solved cube with RU2R' with white on the bottom, orange on front, and read the colors of the 4 remaining corners in this order:

1. ULF
2. URF
3. DRF
4. UBR

You'll see these colors (ignoring top face color):

1. Blue Orange
2. Orange Green
3. Green Red
4. Red Blue

I can also setup with U R U2 R', U2 R U2 R' or U' R U2 R', but the order remains the same, it just starts with a different corner. The order is the order I see on the front face if I start with white on bottom, and keep doing y': Orange Green Red Blue Orange, etc. If you know in which order the cross pieces have to place, you can also figure this out. You'd have to see which two corners have to be switched to 'restore' this order, and choose one out of 5 algs:

(ULF URF): D' R U' R' D
(URF DRF): D R' U R D'
(DRF UBR): D' R U2 R' D
(UBR ULF): L R U' R U L'

(ULF DFR): D R' U' R D'
(URF URB): D R' U' R D'

The last two cases correspond with 'reversing' the order.


Scenario 2:
So next, examine the case where DRB corner is at ULB, and the DRF corner is at DRB. Set this case up on a solved cube with R' U' with white on the bottom, orange on front, and read the colors of the 4 remaining corners in this order:

1. ULF
2. URF
3. DRF
4. UBR

You'll see these colors (ignoring top face color):

1. Red Green
2. Green Orange
3. Orange Blue
4. Blue Red

I can also setup with U R' U', U2 R' U' or U' R' U', but the order remains the same, it just starts with a different corner. The order is the order I see on the front face if I start with white on bottom, and keep doing y: Red Green Orange Blue Red, etc. If you know in which order the cross pieces have to place, you can also figure this out. You'd have to see which two corners have to be switched to 'restore' this order, and choose one out of 5 algs:

(ULF URF): D' R U' R' D
(URF DRF): D R' U R D'
(DRF UBR): D' R U2 R' D
(UBR ULF): L R U' R U L'

(ULF DFR): D R' U' R D'
(URF URB): D R' U' R D'

The last two cases correspond with 'reversing' the order.

So for both scenarios, the algs are the same, but in one scenario the goal is to get the order Orange Green Red Blue, and in the other scenario the goal is to get this in reverse order.

Example:

Orientation: White on bottom, orange on front
Scramble: T-Perm + (R U2 R')

Reading the corners in the described order, we see:

ULF: Red Blue
URF: Orange Green
DRF: Green Red
UBR: Blue Orange

Looks like URF and DRF are in good order, and ULF and URB have to switch. So it's the 4th algorithm: L R U' R U L'. After this, solve the cube 2-gen and confirm that CP is done.

Now recognizing this will take practice, and it's a bit confusing with all the different orientations. But there are some patterns that can be studied, just like in COLL. For example: If the FLU sticker and FRU stickers are yellow (top face color), and the ULF and URF stickers match, that is GOOD in the case where DRF is at DRF and BAD if DRF is at BLU. These patterns could be studied, and I think it's conceivable that somebody could practice this often enough to develop a weird twist in the brain that allows for a fast recognition of this step.

Please give me feedback, or let me know if I made a mistake somewhere. (It's getting quite late here, and I am only human)

Edit:
Btw, It's possible to only look at the stickers that are positioned 'clockwise' from the 'top face sticker', to determine the order. Or alternatively, the ones that are positioned 'counterclockwise' from the top face sticker.

Edit2:
We should create diagrams with two adjacent corners positioned next to each other when 'In order' and 'out of order', in the combinations ULF URF, URF DRF, DRF URB, URB ULF, in all different orientations. By studying those, It will be possible to spot 'in order' and 'out of order' patterns.
 
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