Judging Discussion Thread [before: Judges' behavior at WCA competitions]

[antoineccantin]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would a non-cuber need to help judging? All the competitions I've been to had enough judges (sometimes after calling "You'll get disqualified if you don't judge" and things like that). If you work in 2 groups, the one group judging and scrambling for the other one, there should never be a problem about not having enough judges, and thus needing non-cubers to judge. But maybe in the USA competitions are organised differently.

Because this regulation isn't enforced often enough in North American competitions.
1e2) All competitors should be available for judging, if needed by organisation team. Penalty: disqualification of the competitor for the competition.

 

[cubernya]

That's the one thing I don't understand about the regs. I don't understand how there is a penalty if it says should, not must

 

[Divineskulls]

This is not 10 lines as I have to admit, but it is still fairly short and clear and also available for a long time already: http://www.cubingusa.com/jtutorial.php

What would that accomplish? Just because someone reads something doesn't mean that they process it or know anything. Isn't reading those TOS agreements mandatory when you install new software? Don't you click "I agree" and just get on with your day?

While some people may just read something like this and not understand it, I think having a reference is a good idea, especially at a competition with a lot of new cubers that might be willing to judge. I'm now planning to have a few reference tools at Levittown this weekend, including a few print outs going over judging procedure and obviously a single print out of the regulations. I'll be using the above cubingUSA link to base the judging procedure sheets off of. If it goes well, I might post it somewhere (unless someone has already done this at past competitions, then please ignore the majority of this post. ).

Anyway, I think if this should be discussed further, someone should make a new thread about it. It isn't really on topic with Rowe's apology anymore, and if people have more they want to say, they should be able to say it without getting off topic.

 

[Goosly]

I guess because of the 'if' statement. The delegate can use this if required, but in my experience it's just used as a threat, and always as kind of a joke. But it works.

 

[samchoochiu]

But in the end, this isn't an issue if the judges are cubers. Which means simply that the community, if they want better judging, needs to put in more effort at these competitions so that 10 year-olds aren't pulled to judge a blindfold solve. Why is a 10 year-old judging a blindfold solve and some experienced cuber just sitting in a corner not helping out?

Or some cuber just whining on the internet about how "judges need to be held to a higher standard" but they don't do anything about it. Yes, we can reduce the number of events so that judges aren't overloaded, but this isn't the problem. The problem is that the new members of the community need to step up and make things happen. And this is reflected in the larger issue with things such as US 2014.



I'm still waiting for Eric79's response to my claim that this notion makes no sense because future people cannot take advantage of this situation. Because to profit from cheating, you can't come forward. And if you get caught without coming forward, you're going to get owned.

How could you expect any competitor that paid(in most cases) to COMPETE, to judge and/or scramble?

 

[antoineccantin]

How could you expect any competitor that paid(in most cases) to COMPETE, to judge and/or scramble?

Because by entering a competition, you therefore have agreed to respect the WCA regulations which say you should be available for judging.

 

[PatrickJameson]

How could you expect any competitor that paid(in most cases) to COMPETE, to judge and/or scramble?

Because this is a community. Organizers aren't getting paid to run these competitions. Registration fees go right back to the competitor, be it through venue costs, food, prizes, etc. Without volunteers, competitions wouldn't run. With more volunteers, the competition runs smoother and more events can be held. It all goes back to the competitors.

 

[Goosly]

How could you expect any competitor that paid(in most cases) to COMPETE, to judge and/or scramble?

LOL, you should never come to a competition in the Netherlands/Belgium

 

[JasonK]

How could you expect any competitor that paid(in most cases) to COMPETE, to judge and/or scramble?

Wow, some people are really selfish...

When you pay to enter a competition, you do in the hope that it will be well-run and fair. This can only happen if there are an adequate amount of good judges. There will only be an adequate amount of judges if people actually volunteer to judge.

 

[samchoochiu]

Because this is a community. Organizers aren't getting paid to run these competitions. Registration fees go right back to the competitor, be it through venue costs, food, prizes, etc. Without volunteers, competitions wouldn't run. With more volunteers, the competition runs smoother and more events can be held. It all goes back to the competitors.

Would it not be the organizer(s) job to ask experienced competitors to help judge/scramble if it is clear that there is not enough man power? Though from what I have seen there are usually adequate amount of helpers and they receive something in return such as lunch or free entry or both. The issue is that not all of these volunteers are living up to the standards of what a competitor expects from a judge.

 

[uberCuber]

Would it not be the organizer(s) job to ask experienced competitors to help judge/scramble if it is clear that there is not enough man power?

It certainly is their responsibility to ask. But according to 1e2 quoted above, they have the right to ask any competitor they wish (which happens to include the more selfish competitors like you), who better well agree to help.

 

[PatrickJameson]

Would it not be the organizer(s) job to ask experienced competitors to help judge/scramble if it is clear that there is not enough man power? Though from what I have seen there are usually adequate amount of helpers and they receive something in return such as lunch or free entry or both. The issue is that not all of these volunteers are living up to the standards of what a competitor expects from a judge.

Which goes back to the original statement that you were trying to fight.

 

[samchoochiu]

It certainly is their responsibility to ask. But according to 1e2 quoted above, they have the right to ask any competitor they wish (which happens to include the more selfish competitors like you), who better well agree to help.

That statement is an incorrect assumption that you and a few others have made towards me. I simply pointed out that some people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to volunteering.

 

[JasonK]

That statement is an incorrect assumption that you and a few others have made. I simply pointed out that some people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to volunteering.

What's unreasonable about asking that everyone who wants the competition to run smoothly plays a part in making that happen?

 

[uberCuber]

That statement is an incorrect assumption that you and a few others have made towards me. I simply pointed out that some people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to volunteering.

If you don't personally have a problem with judging/scrambling whenever it's needed, then why are you trying to argue this point? Why try to defend other people that aren't willing to put in the volunteer work that you apparently are willing to do (work that, in fact, is a responsibility of competitors, according to the regulations that they agree to by registering in the first place)?

 

[qqwref]

Or some cuber just whining on the internet about how "judges need to be held to a higher standard" but they don't do anything about it.

I think people working towards a list of things for new judges to read would certainly help having judges held to a higher standard. I mean, let's be honest here, your typical cuber can, at most, themselves be a judge at every competition they go to, which doesn't add that much. Organizers and delegates can do more but most cubers are unlikely to be either of these anytime soon.

I think we absolutely can make newbie judges read some stuff before judging, if we have something printed out for them. If it's short and succinct we can ask them to read the instructions as a replacement for verbally telling them what to do. It's a lot different from the terms of service because it's not going to be some long-ass boilerplate document in legalese, but a short list of info. We could start off with a condensed version of that jtutorial.php page, adding in stuff like "if the competitor disagrees with you, don't insist you're right - instead, ask another judge or the delegate" and "if the competitor doesn't solve the cube, make sure to write down DNF for the solve".

 

[Kattenvriendin]

Wow.. yeah sometimes I think I am actually glad I have bad hearing (deaf without aids)! It is easier to tune out sounds and things while solving because I am used to doing that anyway.

The only downside to me judging is that I at times cannot hear that the cover can be taken off, but I solve that simply by asking "ready?" with my hand on the thing, and then when they nod I know I can take it away. Sometimes that still goes awry a little, but yeah.. the venues are often noisy.. it's irritating but nothing too bad.

I DO take care that I do NOT EVER take a cube from someone who I can see has solving times under like 10 seconds; I don't want to botch their chances at a national record or something huge like that.


The first time I went to a venue (Eindhoven in my case) I was given a link to the judging area amongst other things on the WCA page. And I read it too. I did not judge that first time as I was way too nervous because of the above disability.

I always step back and just look from a small distance.


You know what -I- find annoying? When I am hurrying to get a cube back to the table there are people not competing (family, friends) watching like at less than a few feet away and I almost bump into them and have to say sorry sorry sorry coming through excuuuuse me. Ugh, irritating as heck, that.

 

[Bob]

You know what -I- find annoying? When I am hurrying to get a cube back to the table there are people not competing (family, friends) watching like at less than a few feet away and I almost bump into them and have to say sorry sorry sorry coming through excuuuuse me. Ugh, irritating as heck, that.

We had a lot of parents in the way at the Jersey Shore Open. I solved this problem by paying a kid $5 to be the "bouncer." He would tell people to back up and stay out of the area for the first hour or two. Afterwards, people were already used to not being in the area, so it was a lot less frustrating.

 

[qqwref]

Hahaha, that's hilarious. And also genius.

 

[uniacto]

We had a lot of parents in the way at the Jersey Shore Open. I solved this problem by paying a kid $5 to be the "bouncer." He would tell people to back up and stay out of the area for the first hour or two. Afterwards, people were already used to not being in the area, so it was a lot less frustrating.

ingenious.

"psssst, hey kid. wanna be a bouncer for 5 bucks?"

On topic: I've never been to a comp, so I can't speak from personal experience, but it seems that some judges at small competitions are more of the family and friend volunteers, right?