Judging Discussion Thread [before: Judges' behavior at WCA competitions]

[Owen]

This makes a for a good case study for what I've been saying for quite some time now. Competitions need higher standards for judging. Not that the judge is the one to blame here, but the the chance of something like this happening is decreased if new standards are implemented. I've seen many examples where "time constraints" have prompted organizers to allow 10 year olds who haven't read the regulations judge.

 

[Tyson]

This makes a for a good case study for what I've been saying for quite some time now. Competitions need higher standards for judging. Not that the judge is the one to blame here, but the the chance of something like this happening is decreased if new standards are implemented. I've seen many examples where "time constraints" have prompted organizers to allow 10 year olds who haven't read the regulations judge.

Sure, perhaps this is true. Are you willing to see a reduction in the number of events held at competitions in exchange for this? Are you willing to see a reduction in the number of competitions in exchange for this?

 

[Owen]

Sure, perhaps this is true. Are you willing to see a reduction in the number of events held at competitions in exchange for this? Are you willing to see a reduction in the number of competitions in exchange for this?

Sure, I'd rather go to one solid competition per year than three shaky ones.

 

[Goosly]

'Shaky' is a bit over-expressed. Yes, there are judges who don't fully know how to judge. If you encounter one, just tell him how to do it correctly.

 

[Tyson]

Or... or... maybe as competitors you can all help out and participate more in the organization of the competition? And instead of complaining about having to find 10 year-olds to judge, why don't you make yourself available to judge? Or why don't you drop certain events so you can help out more?

Not happy with the level of organization of the competition? Organize one yourself and show the rest of the organizers how it should be done.

 

[Noahaha]

My Apology

I've judged during most non-BLD events at around seven competitions, so I consider myself fairly experienced, but I think I still make mistakes. What I'm getting at is that we can raise the quality of the average mom/dad/younger sibling judge just by giving them a sheet they have to read before judging. All they really need to "judge" is timer starting/stopping and all they need to be able to do is write down times neatly. Everything else that could happen can be handled by a more experienced person. A little card with a few procedures on it could make a world of difference.

 

[Owen]

I think it would help to give a copy of the regulations to each judge, and encourage them to consult it if anything questionable comes up.

 

[Tyson]

I think it would help to give a copy of the regulations to each judge, and encourage them to consult it if anything questionable comes up.

Why would you just judge yourself? It doesn't matter what instructions you give to a non-cuber. A cuber will almost always be a better judge than a non-cuber.

 

[antoineccantin]

Why would you just judge yourself? It doesn't matter what instructions you give to a non-cuber. A cuber will almost always be a better judge than a non-cuber.

What if you're already judging?

 

[Noahaha]

My Apology

I think it would help to give a copy of the regulations to each judge, and encourage them to consult it if anything questionable comes up.

The problem with that is that noncubers don't know what's questionable and what's not. Giving them the entirety of the regulations is absurd. If they see something questionable they just have to ask a more experienced person. The only thing we need to teach them is what to look out for i.e. starts, stops, pops, inspection, when to assign a penalty and when to ask a judge about it.

 

[Tyson]

What if you're already judging?

Then this doesn't apply to you. But I'm asking 2010LENN01 if he would be willing to judge himself so that organizers have access to better judges. And actually, to answer your point, if you're already judging, and you're complaining about the judging quality, then why don't you go and organize your own competition, and assemble your own team of judges, put the processes that you think are necessary to ensure a high level of judging (maybe that's an instruction sheet) and make sure the judging is better.

In both cases, you have no right to complain because you can actively do something to make the situation better.

 

[Noahaha]

My Apology

Tyson, would you ever consider making a short (around 10 lines) reading mandatory for first-time judges?

 

[Owen]

Fair enough. Next competition, I will judge as many events as I can.

Still, I do agree with Noahaha. I think there should be some mandatory reading for judges.

 

[Sebastien]

This is not 10 lines as I have to admit, but it is still fairly short and clear and also available for a long time already: http://www.cubingusa.com/jtutorial.php

 

[Tyson]

Tyson, would you ever consider making a short (around 10 lines) reading mandatory for first-time judges?

What would that accomplish? Just because someone reads something doesn't mean that they process it or know anything. Isn't reading those TOS agreements mandatory when you install new software? Don't you click "I agree" and just get on with your day?

I think what might be more effective is a feedback system of judges, or a database to keep track of judges. But in the end, this isn't an issue if the judges are cubers. Which means simply that the community, if they want better judging, needs to put in more effort at these competitions so that 10 year-olds aren't pulled to judge a blindfold solve. Why is a 10 year-old judging a blindfold solve and some experienced cuber just sitting in a corner not helping out?

Or some cuber just whining on the internet about how "judges need to be held to a higher standard" but they don't do anything about it. Yes, we can reduce the number of events so that judges aren't overloaded, but this isn't the problem. The problem is that the new members of the community need to step up and make things happen. And this is reflected in the larger issue with things such as US 2014.

You could also say future people in the same situation know they can [try to] cheat without the fear of being punished.

I'm still waiting for Eric79's response to my claim that this notion makes no sense because future people cannot take advantage of this situation. Because to profit from cheating, you can't come forward. And if you get caught without coming forward, you're going to get owned.

 

[Noahaha]

My Apology

^I agree with everything you said except the first part. I'm guessing most first-time judges don't even know that they need to watch the timer stop, so having them read "give a +2 penalty if the competitor is still touching the cube once he has stopped the timer" will accomplish making them aware that they even need to pay attention to it.

Of course, this argument I am making would not be necessary if, as you say, more experienced people were willing to help out.

Another decision that some organizers could make but I have never seen is to make all competitors have to judge or scramble for one event, or perhaps give free/reduced entry to people who judge/scramble a certain amount.

 

[Goosly]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would a non-cuber need to help judging? All the competitions I've been to had enough judges (sometimes after calling "You'll get disqualified if you don't judge" and things like that). If you work in 2 groups, the one group judging and scrambling for the other one, there should never be a problem about not having enough judges, and thus needing non-cubers to judge. But maybe in the USA competitions are organised differently.

 

[cubernya]

(sometimes after calling "You'll get disqualified if you don't judge" and things like that)

The delegate can't do this IIRC. It's only a recommendation, not mandatory

 

[Goosly]

1e2) All competitors should be available for judging, if needed by organisation team. Penalty: disqualification of the competitor for the competition.

Delegates can do it.

 

[Bob]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would a non-cuber need to help judging? All the competitions I've been to had enough judges (sometimes after calling "You'll get disqualified if you don't judge" and things like that). If you work in 2 groups, the one group judging and scrambling for the other one, there should never be a problem about not having enough judges, and thus needing non-cubers to judge. But maybe in the USA competitions are organised differently.

Indeed, they are. There is even significant variation in organization of competitions in different areas of the USA. Competitions in New Jersey are a lot different from competitions in Minnesota or Ohio or California.