Time Limit For Multi!!!

[Mike Hughey]

But in "card-memory-sport", there is also a diszipline, where you have more than one hour, to memorize AS MUCH CARD DECKS AS YOU WANT TO:

59 decks (3068 cards) by David Farrow (Kanada) 2007!!!
AND then there is memorizing in one hours, TOO!

Greetins...Dennis

Sources? It's not a discipline in official memory sports competitions

He probably got it from here:
http://www.recordholders.org/en/list/memory.html#cards-most

It's true that the World Memory Sports competitions don't do this, though. Probably because it's impractical for competitions.

 

[DennisStrehlau]

I don't think there should be a time limit. If someone wants to try 100 cubes over the course of an entire competition day, he should be allowed to do it.

So, i'm forced to miss other events if i want to win multi bld?

Yes, people already miss other events for big cube BLD, why shouldn't multi-BLDers? It's a choice you make; the organizers don't have to accommodate a small number of people when there are many others that want to speedsolve.

Either that or get faster at multi-BLD so that you don't miss any events.

Like qqwref said, it's not a dilemma at all.

Nice, no one gets what i'm trying to say. It's not my decision.

It's far more impressive for someone to solve 100/100 cubes in eight hours than it is for someone to solve 25/25 in two hours. I always thought that that was the point of the event.

Yes, because it's the same time per cube...

But in "card-memory-sport", there is also a diszipline, where you have more than one hour, to memorize AS MUCH CARD DECKS AS YOU WANT TO:

59 decks (3068 cards) by David Farrow (Kanada) 2007!!!
AND then there is memorizing in one hours, TOO!

Greetins...Dennis

Sources? It's not a discipline in official memory sports competitions

"Regeln:
Während der gesamten Zeit müssen zwei Schiedsrichter (Personen, die ein gesellschaftliches Amt bekleiden) den Versuch überwachen. Wird eine falsch benannte Karte sofort ohne Hinweis von außen korrigiert, gilt dies nicht als Fehler. Die Zahl der erlaubten Fehler darf ein halbes Prozent der gemischten Karten, aufgerundet zur nächsten ganzen Zahl, nicht übersteigen.
Die Zeit, die zum Einprägen und zur Wiedergabe der Karten benötigt wird, sollte bei der Rekordanmeldung mit angegeben werden, auch wenn sie für den eigentlichen Rekord unerheblich ist."

Its german, but it means like:
there have to be 2 judges, so and so many mistakes are allowed, you should be able, to tell the time, that you NEED to memorize and tell the card, EVEN IF ITS NOT IMPORTANT HOW LING IT TAKES...

Its official!

By the way, even if this WOULD NOT BE on a competition, you cant do that for multi. i mean: if you want to do 100 cubes and you have to ask for a judge (not in a competition) etc. its much more work, than if you would just go to a competiton and sit there (if you miss other events or not) and the judge judges you and some other multi-bld-cubers.
And again: there is no WR-Attempt in every competition guys!

 

[Derrick Eide17]

I don't think there should be a time limit. If someone wants to try 100 cubes over the course of an entire competition day, he should be allowed to do it.

So, i'm forced to miss other events if i want to win multi bld?

Yes, people already miss other events for big cube BLD, why shouldn't multi-BLDers? It's a choice you make; the organizers don't have to accommodate a small number of people when there are many others that want to speedsolve.

Either that or get faster at multi-BLD so that you don't miss any events.

Like qqwref said, it's not a dilemma at all.

Nice, no one gets what i'm trying to say. It's not my decision.

Okay then explain to us? its simple.. you want WR? SACRIFICE the other events to get it. if your not willing to do that. then your not dedicated enough in my mind. also btw there is all this talk about one person solves X number of cubes in a fast time, and then other person solves maybe 1 or just a FEW more cubes and just spends more time memoing so is slower to beat that person. well really think about it. if they took longer and memo'd more... doesnt that mean they worked HARDER then the last person and took more time in their attempt to get the WR? so really they worked longer, harder, and sacrificed much MORE to get there WR so shouldnt they DESERVE it?

 

[AvGalen]

Would you like Erik to chose between 4x4x4 and 5x5x5? Or Edouard between 2x2x2 and 3x3x3?

Why would someone that is good at MBF have to choose?

What if you were really fast and could win/WR both regular 3x3x3 and 3x3x3_mbf? Just be glad people like Tim/Dennis/Rowe/XX are sooooo slow for other events

And I take much longer on 3x3x3 compared to Erik. Does that mean I work harder so I deserver the WR more? For speedcubing AND mbf being fast is good.

 

[ExoCorsair]

Would you like Erik to chose between 4x4x4 and 5x5x5? Or Edouard between 2x2x2 and 3x3x3?

Why would someone that is good at MBF have to choose?

But big cube events take little time for potential WR competitors; 10 minutes at the most. 2x2 and 3x3 even less time. Plus, they are NOT SIDE EVENTS.

Multi-BLD will take a long amount of time no matter if Rowe or Tim or Ryosuke or whoever is doing it (and going for the WR). It's worse than fewest moves, since fewest moves will always take one hour to complete.

People doing multi-BLD will HAVE to choose unless there was a time slot allocated specifically for multi-BLD, i.e. it becomes a main event. And again, doing so would accommodate a small number of people while many others are waiting to speedsolve.

I can see this time limit doing only two things:
1. Makes it easier for Tim's WR to stand (come on, 2:30 vs. the current 24/24 in 2:15?)
2. Possibly makes it easier for organizers to schedule the event.

But keeping multi-BLD as a side event like it has been treated defeats the purpose of #2.

 

[Pedro]

Would you like Erik to chose between 4x4x4 and 5x5x5? Or Edouard between 2x2x2 and 3x3x3?

Why would someone that is good at MBF have to choose?

What if you were really fast and could win/WR both regular 3x3x3 and 3x3x3_mbf? Just be glad people like Tim/Dennis/Rowe/XX are sooooo slow for other events

And I take much longer on 3x3x3 compared to Erik. Does that mean I work harder so I deserver the WR more? For speedcubing AND mbf being fast is good.

I think your examples don't apply to this case...4x4 and 5x5 are really quick, compared to multi bld...

Rowe is not that slow he's posted a 10.xx avg of 5 video...and he's good at 2x2 too

 

[Lucas Garron]

Would you like Erik to chose between 4x4x4 and 5x5x5? Or Edouard between 2x2x2 and 3x3x3?

No, those are short. I would like Michael to pick between 20x20x20 an 21x21x21, though...

I already have to give up FMC for my 4x4x4 BLD attempts (not that I do much FMC, but if I didn't have to give it up, I would certainly focus on beating the NR)...

Z2, I think, may discriminate among events.

I think that the WCA-imposed limit is rather non-sensical (same with the 10/cube). Ron's main argument is that it allows the organizers to handle competitions better, and that it makes the event more fair for everyone around the world.

Why not allow the organizers to decide? If they can handle it logistically, then why stop them? Ron claims that the huge number of registered multi competitors at Euros will cause trouble. But then why not declare limits only for that competition?
As for bias among competitions, note that competition distributions are already unfair by proximity, continent (comps on the same continent tend to handle things similarly - you can't do foot-solving in the US...), etc. Chris Brownlee has had a great chance at breaking the megaminx WR for the last few years, but has not had a competition opportunity anywhere for it.
Multi, if someone cares for it enough, could easily be a single dedication for a competition. With the point system, it's not even the same risk it once was.
And if you have to miss other events, especially BLD events, why not just put give the competitor the choice to take her/his attempts immediately before multi?


If Tim wants his 1-hour limit, propose a new event: Have the competitor memorize cubes, requesting/drawing them from the judge in order. After at most one hour, the competitor must don the blindfold and solve as many as (s)hehas memorized, in a "reasonable" time.

 

[masterofthebass]

But big cube events take little time for potential WR competitors; 10 minutes at the most. 2x2 and 3x3 even less time. Plus, they are NOT SIDE EVENTS.

There's no official declaration of SIDE EVENTS. Technically, there can be a competition with only multi BLD, even though I don't think it would get approved.

 

[Derrick Eide17]

Would you like Erik to chose between 4x4x4 and 5x5x5? Or Edouard between 2x2x2 and 3x3x3?

Why would someone that is good at MBF have to choose?

What if you were really fast and could win/WR both regular 3x3x3 and 3x3x3_mbf? Just be glad people like Tim/Dennis/Rowe/XX are sooooo slow for other events

And I take much longer on 3x3x3 compared to Erik. Does that mean I work harder so I deserver the WR more? For speedcubing AND mbf being fast is good.

Pretty much what the others said, those are all different cases besides has anything like this ever come up? no MBF is a different case and the people that are good at it really dedicate their time and make the sacrifice to get the WR's and Huge amount of cubes they earn. besides even if someone memo's forever everyone seems to think it takes less skill and they get WR by just getting more time, but they are NEVER GUARANTEED to get ALL those cubes successful i dont care HOW LONG they memoed MANY THINGS CAN STILL GO WRONG. memo error, stressed out from so much memo, forgetting memo while solving, pop/cube malfunction, and etc. and i dont understand why its so hard of a decision when all we do is person X wants to try as many cubes as they want, they have as much time as they want, and they dont distract, disturb, or take away anything from any of the other competitiors except they miss out on THEIR OWN events, and like i said is still not GUARANTEED of getting all the cubes. so what is the problem? and even if they do they did ALL THIS, and sacrificed all their events to do this, when all the people who are FOR the time limit seems that they would NOT sacrifice their events to do this. so if one pers0on is willing to spend ALL THIS time, still not be guaranteed all of the cubes, and miss their events should they not DESERVE the WR and a full competition time to try and do so? we arent asking for people to all be on the competitiors side hand and foot for DAYS on end, like really come on....

 

[joey]

You don't need to get all cubes any more, rememeber.

If they are willing to spend the whole comp doing it, it doesn't increase the amount they deserve the WR.

Also, you still need a judge(s) to watch for all that time. I guess if the competitor could provide one?

 

[Dene]

I must admit, all these people complaining about how they don't want to waste a whole competition doing just multi-BLD. Can't we be grateful for even being able to get to a competition in the first place?

 

[Derrick Eide17]

You don't need to get all cubes any more, rememeber.

If they are willing to spend the whole comp doing it, it doesn't increase the amount they deserve the WR.

Also, you still need a judge(s) to watch for all that time. I guess if the competitor could provide one?

I never liked that rule anyway, i wish it was still the way it used to be where u had to get 100% of course that was unfair a little but i liked it more then the way now. the purpose of MultiBLD is too see how many cubes u can get and get 100% but oh well. but yeah all You need is a judge which they have judges anyway so its easy, just switches judges every little bit, besides im sure some people wouldnt mind, if i was at a comp i would not mind to judge for even 1 or 2 hours at a time if i could, and im sure others just as dedicated wouldnt mind either.

 

[joey]

if i was at a comp i would not mind to judge for even 1 or 2 hours at a time if i could, and im sure others just as dedicated wouldnt mind either.

The "others just as dedicated", is the part I'm talking about.

 

[qqwref]

After some more thought, I'm leaning towards moving multibld out of competitions, at least for people who are going for the WR and not just doing two or three cubes. It just has so many characteristics that are not suited to competitions - it can take hours, few people do it, and you don't really compete in it (how often do 2+ people who will even attempt a high enough number of cubes for a regional record even go to the same competition?). Logistically speaking there is no reason to be barred from some events, have 12 people there, schedule a month ahead of time, etc. just to attempt a multibld solve - except that at the moment we force multibld attempts to be during a competition. So maybe the best solution would be to allow people to try official multibld attempts whenever they can get an official WCA multibld judge to scramble for them and watch over it (with a limit of, say, once a week, to prevent people living near a judge from abusing it), whether it is at a competition or not. It's analogous with the 59 decks thing: clearly there is not enough time to do such a huge amount of memorization during a competition, so they probably have to set it up at some other time.

I think there is a parallel to this in WCA history - the "most cubes solved in 24 hours" thing. I saw a WCA news report a while back about how an official world record in this (unofficial?) event had been set, but of course it was not during a competition, just witnessed by a trusted observer. It might be prudent in the future for the WCA to make special provisions for events like this which take very long amounts of time.

 

[masterofthebass]

Most of the people who are against this time limit are looking at multi BLD with a very narrow mind. You guys have preconceived notions of what you take "3x3 multiple blindfold" to mean. This is a new sport, and multi BLD is an even newer event. We as a community need to be open to some change, as we realize past mistakes and try to fix them (as we did with the score changes)

 

[ExoCorsair]

But big cube events take little time for potential WR competitors; 10 minutes at the most. 2x2 and 3x3 even less time. Plus, they are NOT SIDE EVENTS.

There's no official declaration of SIDE EVENTS. Technically, there can be a competition with only multi BLD, even though I don't think it would get approved.

Does it matter? Side events are generally accepted (at least from what I've seen) as events off to the side. Such as Pyraminx, Megaminx, and Magics at the US Open 2007. You will never see a multi-BLD event take place on the stage of most, if not all, competitions. Logistically, it's too noisy, inconvenient, not the best eye-catcher for the public, and it takes too bloody long.

Most of the people who are against this time limit are looking at multi BLD with a very narrow mind. You guys have preconceived notions of what you take "3x3 multiple blindfold" to mean. This is a new sport, and multi BLD is an even newer event. We as a community need to be open to some change, as we realize past mistakes and try to fix them (as we did with the score changes)

That is a naive view. What mistake is there with the "old multi-BLD"?

I think anyone who's seen Ryosuke's ridiculous attempts on YouTube can attest to this. Accuracy comes first, not speed.

 

[Derrick Eide17]

Most of the people who are against this time limit are looking at multi BLD with a very narrow mind. You guys have preconceived notions of what you take "3x3 multiple blindfold" to mean. This is a new sport, and multi BLD is an even newer event. We as a community need to be open to some change, as we realize past mistakes and try to fix them (as we did with the score changes)

VERY NARROW MIND? we have mentioned tons of ideas, opinions, contributions, etc and that is Narrow? what else do you want us to do? and again where is the problem in not having such a small limit for MultiBLD? Actually putting a limit On MultiBLID is taking out bigger possibilites and making the event even more narrow itself so why do that? why not go farther and let the limits be reached and especially because it is such an amazing event?

 

[Dene]

Mr Eide, you have taken what Mr. Cohen said completely out of context and twisted it to your own view (fallacy of equivocation).

Don't abuse ambiguities if you want people to take your argument seriously.

 

[Derrick Eide17]

i'm proving a point Dene, sorry if that seems TWISTED to you, but to me thats just my opinion man.

 

[tim]

Dan is right. We can learn a lot from the memory sports competitions/events, which seem to be well organized.

And Derrick: I don't care, if you see things in my posts i never said. Read more carefully! I never talked about world records.