Europe 2008

[cubetimer]

This whole thread is a little disappointing.

I'll be going to the San Diego Open tomorrow. It's my second competition ever. This time I'm bringing a bunch of friends. It will be their first. One of the things I've always bragged about with them is how cool the cubing community is as a whole. For the most part everyone is willing to talk, help you out... everybody is there to have fun.

I'd hate to see cubing become like pretty much every other sport, where everyone starts quibbling over stupid ego related crap.

I mean, let's be realistic here - it's a plastic toy. I know that probably borders on blasphemous around here, but cubing is a hobby. It's fun to compete and come away with a title, until the arguing takes the fun out of it and you're just left with an ego driven mess.

If the only way you can really win a title is by excluding people that are faster than you, I'd call the pretty childish. If you are the fastest of the 100 slowest people on earth, that's not much to be proud of...

(and no, I'm not calling Europeans the 100 slowest people on Earth, if anyone tries to take it that way...)

 

[Ron]

Hi guys,

In roughly 80% of competitions in Europe there are only European competitors. Great opportunities to have that European feeling?
In roughly 20% of competitions in Europe there are a few non European competitors. Most of the time these competitors were non Europeans living in Europe and maybe one or two travellers. They were always very welcome. One of them is our Argentinian friend Gabriel from Barcelona area. I am happy that there are opens where he can compete.

I never had that Dutch or European feeling. In competitions I always have the feeling of being among other cube friends. I love it! It is a big motivation for me to organise and to practice.

We have two discussions here:
1) should Euro 2008 be open?
2) should we allow closed competitions at all?

The answer to the first question is not up to the community, but up to the organisation team (options based on current regulations) and up to the WCA Board (decisions based on current regulations).
The answer to the second question is up to the community. Next stop is WCA regulations 2009. Let us discuss again beginning of 2009. Oh, and then please play the ball not the player. In general I think we need the option of closed competitions, most of the time national competitions, because some sponsors demand it. In a few years we will have a stronger position against those sponsors. Because we are the greatest salesmen of our hobby to the media, by having so much fun and having such a cool hobby.

The organisation team of Euro 2008 is not stupid. For all fears that I hear on this forum, there are plenty of options to deal with the 'danger'. Suppose the top 32 non European cubers would participate, and there was a chance that there would be no Europeans in the finals. Or that there were so many non European multiple blindfolded competitors that our 'own' European multiple blindfolded competitors could not participate. Or all the other dangers that you can think of.
We will find a solution, don't worry.

We have this discussion because in general most people do not like change.
Euro 2008 is a change to a tradition (European cubing championships are closed, European championships in general are closed).
Euro 2008 is a change to expectations (Euro 2008 was supposed to be closed).
Euro 2008 is a change to naming conventions (if the name does not include 'Open', it is a closed competition).
It takes some time to get used to it.

Everyone is a friend and everyone is welcome.

Have fun,

Ron

 

[nicoJ]

i agree with that

but, if we are doing a Euro, it has to be just for europeans, i think that's the way it has to be

 

[rxdeath]

right on ron, you are firm but fair. i will be happy to drop the discussion until something can actually be accomplished from it. i have my opinions about sponsers/media/etc.. but that can wait until then. i know that euro 2008 will be a great competition and we can expect world class performances regardless of the situation or name of the tournament, good luck to everyone, and if i make it (i gave my word i would not compete, so i won't) i'll try hard not to stink up the place with my red white and blue smell

 

[tim]

Everyone is a friend and everyone is welcome.

I hope we'll keep that in mind until the EC and beyond that. Reading some posts in this thread made me feel sad.

Actually i didn't want to go to the EC, since Spain is somewhat expensive. But after i read, that'll be an open comepition, i changed my mind and will try to save some money (e.g. by selling cubes ).

 

[nicoJ]

tim from germany!!!
germany is a "little more expensive" than spain
just a little
so is like going to somewhere in germany
i assure you

 

[Stefan]

the position of Stefan Pochmann, that is, the only important results are the personal best and the world record; all other discriminations are artificial (I hope that is a correct interpretation of your position, Stefan).

Pretty much, yes. World combines everybody, personal combines nobody. These are the two extremes. Anything in between combines some people but not others, using some criterion treating different people differently. The two extremes have no such criterion, they're the only ones treating everybody the same.

 

[AvGalen]

i agree very few comparisons work in this situation.

erik: the EC does exist. its the open competition in bilbao, just because you 'deny' it, doesn't mean its not there.

another point: so if its the 'atmosphere/feeling' that you're after, how is it ok for us to be there, but not compete? i mean people would still be there and stinking up the place with their non-european aura. is it just if we compete? where exactly is the line drawn? how do you manage this feeling at other competitions as chris asked, i don't see how this can be turned on and off. the comparison to racism isn't as far off as you think in my opinion, i didn't really want to drop that bomb, but its pretty close, i think its funny the word 'nationalism' would best describe this segregation in my mind, and it makes me reaffirm that -isms are usually horrible.

Nobody said you were stinking up the place, but for some reason you even felt the need to repeat it. Comments like that only cause discussions to overheat. I have already answered how I manage this feeling, so please don't ask the same question again without responding to answers that have already been given.
I would draw the line at competing, just as the WCA rules state for a closed competition. I wouldn't mind non-European spectators at all. Just compare it to soccer. WCA equals UEFA (a global organisation), but the rules also allow closed competitions. Nobody would mind if there were non-European spectators, not even if it would be an entire team. But they shouldn't be allowed to compete in the European Championship. There are other tournaments around the world where everyone would compete against eachother.

Chess is different, and I talked about this in a different post. In a chess tournament, your field has a direct effect on your individual performance. You have to play these people. The same goes for a track and field race. In a 1500 meter race, the people who lead the pack will set the tempo for the race.

In cubing, you can perform your best result irregardless of who is there.

That is mostly true, but not always: http://speedsolving.com/showpost.php?p=22281&postcount=36
This is just a side note. I already mentioned many times that this is not about "foreigners stealing our prices"

I will not comment on the racism comparison other then I think it is way out of line. Last year I met Lori (reporter) during the US Open and we had many talks both in Chicago and later in The Netherlands about racism. Racism and wanting a closed competition in addidtion to an open competition are WAY apart.

http://www.speedcubing.com/events/euro2008/competitors.html
Still no non-European cubers

To the organisors: Why not change the name to European Open?

To Ron: I agree with you, as I do most of the time, but I think

2) should we allow open competitions at all?

you mean "should we allow closed competitions?"

And that's all I have to say about this for now.

 

[rxdeath]

avg: i did post that original thing before ron made his very valid point it's out of our hands now, and we just have to move forward. i think if you can't joke about it (i put a smiley and everything) then you are far too serious, i think its a good thing to be able to make fun of yourself (which was my intention, making fun of me, not anyone else, sorry if you took it otherwise) anyone that can get ****ed off honestly deserves to be ****ed off because very few things in life are worth anger and none of them is the rubiks cube i don't feel you've answered my question either, but we can save it until '09. your answer on why is unsatisfactory to me, so i wondered if you could present it a different way, so i reasked the ?, nothing wrong there

also i said its closer than you think, but not exactly the same. i will be interested to know how you find it so different when the time comes.(regarding racism)

edit: for picky pochmann

 

[Dene]

I mean, let's be realistic here - it's a plastic toy.

rx: On your point I agree, except that I am of the opinion that nothing is worthy of anger, ever.

 

[Stefan]

very few things in life are worth anger and one of them isn't the rubiks cube

But another one is? Dude you screwed that up.

 

[rxdeath]

very few things in life are worth anger and one of them isn't the rubiks cube

But another one is? Dude you screwed that up.

edited for your viewing pleasure lol. man you're like gravity. always waiting for someone to let their guard down and WHAM you got them

 

[Erik]

Inusagi: why? because then I wouldn't prepare for half a year (at least prepare my mind) for a tournament that's not going to be the way it has always been and has said it will be again. So in my opinion this IS very different from a 2010 competition which is announced well before.

Bryan1: no if you are against the closed competition so much I'd be willing to give that part of the competition up, where the note should be that I only say this about this particular EC and not for all competitions
Bryan2: that discussion is very outdated since the last post was made august 2006 so it can't have sudden immediate change because we suddenly all looked at a very old post. c

@ Ron1: ok I see now, but I do have to ask (where you are not obliged to answer, since that's your right of course ) if the small (pre) discussion on yahoo, -especially made by clancy- made the organisation team change their mind. Or, if they the team just came up with the idea that it's better to be open without any influence from the outside.
@ Ron2: I'm kinda wondering why the change wasn't made and announced at the end of the previous EC or wasn't made after this EC, since we (at least me) now have the situation of being semi-prepared (mostly mentally) and then suddenly have to switch over to preparing for a (possibly) different competitor field. It would have prevented some surprises/frustrations imho.

@ All: of course EC (closed or not) is still a big competition where one of the biggest goals is to have the most fun I can have, if the EC is open and you all come I will be a bit dissapointed but still have loads of fun. (duh!)

 

[Bryan]

Bryan1: no if you are against the closed competition so much I'd be willing to give that part of the competition up, where the note should be that I only say this about this particular EC and not for all competitions

OK, so just make the EC a non-WCA competition and run it how you want.

Bryan2: that discussion is very outdated since the last post was made august 2006 so it can't have sudden immediate change because we suddenly all looked at a very old post.

Well, if you go to page 2, you'll see the discussion was bumped in Nov 2007 for discussion of the 2008 regulations.

 

[rxdeath]

stuff erik said (i cut the quote to make it shorter, its just so its obvious who i'm speaking to)

1st paragraph: you should train as hard as you can all the time regardless of competitors, if you don't then the only person to blame is yourself.

2nd paragraph: i don't see why you want to blame this on me, but ron if it is true that is because of me, don't be hesistant to say it on my account, i will gladly be the martyr for this cause. however i would like to know what this has to do with the meat and potatos of the subject, which is equal opportunity for all. i will take fault for it, its my fault. just like it's henry ford's fault that so many people die in automobile crashes everyday....

if you're disappointed to see other cubers there, then i would say you are there for the wrong reasons, and i can't believe you'd say that considering how selfish it sounds.

lastly, didn't many people say it would be good if the debate portion of this was over until the 09 rules are drafted?

 

[Gunnar]

It's easy to see why people might be attracted by a closed shampionship. People has always wanted to compare themseleves against others they have something in common with, may it be their family, school class, home town, regional area, country, continent and at last the world. That's the reason there exists these closed sompetitions in most sports. It's a cultural thing which isn't easily just thrown away, so I can see Arnaud's point of way, even though it's just his 'feeling'.

That said, I myself don't care to much about closed sompetitions. I qoute myslef from an e-mail:

"I'm fine with the fact that non-europeans are allowed. It can still be considered an official european championship, in that the point of the whole competition is to find the best european cuber. Since everybody is aware of that, a fair deal of the elite european cubers will get there, which is, for me, what makes the championship legitimite. That isn't affected by the presence of non-europeans.

I can understand both sides' arguments on the topic, but I'm just glad if more nice people are coming. It's already hard enough to get together with the non-euro cubers."


PS. I don't know if this gave anything. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

/Gunnar Krig

 

[Erik]

1st paragraph: you should train as hard as you can all the time regardless of competitors, if you don't then the only person to blame is yourself.

Er.. nope not true at all imho for a few reasons.
1. I don't have unlimited cubing time so I have to choose the puzzles which I practise more or less. (note that I registered for all events)
2. it depends on the people coming which puzzles I practise more or less.
3. I hope you are not trying to make my training schedule here

and sure it would be a good debate point for WCA rules 2009, I only assumed there would mostly be debate before change and not debate because of (and after). [side note] no I don't consider that old WCA forum chat as a real debate since there are probably 10x more posts in this one (plus this one is recent and not outdated)...

 

[Inusagi]

Inusagi: why? because then I wouldn't prepare for half a year (at least prepare my mind) for a tournament that's not going to be the way it has always been and has said it will be again. So in my opinion this IS very different from a 2010 competition which is announced well before.

You got around 4-5 months to "prepare" your mind now. And thats a lot. I don't really know what you actually mean with Preparing your mind, but I am very sure, that 4-5 months is enough.

 

[Erik]

You can't and you don't know that, you are not me, you can't read my mind. Fact remains that you always have 1 year to prepare between the big annual tournaments which is now interrupted..

 

[Inusagi]

You can't and you don't know that, you are not me, you can't read my mind. Fact remains that you always have 1 year to prepare between the big annual tournaments which is now interrupted..

But what do you need to prepare for? There is not very bigs changes that you need to prepare for. There is just coming some more people that's not from Europe. Do you really need 2 and a half year to prepare for such a thing?