Europe 2008

[Stefan]

Getting a national title or a national record is a pretty big thing and can be a great motivator.

Or a great demotivator. I *am* "German champion" because there was a closed German championship and I won, so it's an accurate title. But I don't like it. This discussion made me aware of it and it gives me another reason for me to not compete in another closed German championship. German Open is different, if I win an event there I won't be "German champion" but "German Open winner". Clumsy maybe, but I don't care.

Read the definition of " championship " , it can not been named european championship

I did read some, and they didn't imply that at all. Maybe you found a different definition? Please show us.

My mom (who owns an Indonesian passport) supports Edouard, Erik and the others who are against this 'Open', she wants to help judging, do you hear her complain that she couldn't compete at some closed competitions

With all due respect, she is a mediocre cuber and relatively old, I think that makes her look at this in a more relaxed way. Oh and why do you mention this at all? Because closed is ok for one non-European, that means it must be ok for all? That's proof by example. Flawed.

If this championship is called European Open, why would I have to go there? That is just like a normal open competition (like Polish Open).

Wrong. European Open, advertised as such and probably with more prizes/days/events/media, will be much larger than other open competitions like the Polish Open. That's what makes it special.

I don't care about the name of the competitions or about regional titles (except in a negative way, except world champion). What makes the European Thing much more attractive than others is that it will be much bigger. Because people agree to *make* it much bigger.

 

[rubikaz]

i don't think there should be limits on competitors,

Maybe they dont have enough time for it...

but if its completely necessary, then it should be done based on times, not where you were born.

Times in previous compeitions? I think NO
Times in a preliminary round? Maybe they dont have enough time for it...
Not based where you were born... Why not? It is the European championship...

 

[AvGalen]

If a school would like to organise a competition where only its students could compete that would be ok with me, but they shouldn't expect to be an official WCA tournament. The WCA has clear rules about this and I support those rules.

Not so much.

A closed competition may be open to... members of a specific club

For example, the My First Name is Tyson Club, or the I Didn't Participate in the European Championship 2008 Club. That sound fair? These fit the rules just as much as yours, excluding people arbitrarily.

Good point keyan, I actually didn't read as far as the club part. (Never noticed it before, glad I know now).

I am guessing that club part was added because of an Asian country where two clubs were (are?) present that didn't (dont?) get along.

I think most of your other arguments (though funny) would be prevented because of rules 8a-n. (good luck finding >=12 Tyson's) And a school is not a club. (or is it? That's the only time the word club is mentioned in the regulations so I don't really know what club was supposed to mean)

It has been mentioned so many times that birth-country or other geographic limits are arbitrary. But that really isn't true. Borders (and citizenship) exist for a reason and influence which laws and politics you have to abide to and what freedom you have. Just because abortion/prostitution/drugs/nudity/bigamy/xxx are/aren't allowed in your country doesn't mean that's the way it should be everywhere.

Europe has a tradition where sports are viewed at multiple levels. It starts within your local age group in your local club and goes up to city/regional/national/european/world-championships.
Europe also has a tradition in open Tournaments where people from all over the world are welcome to participate.
Tradition might not always make sense to outsiders and sometimes outsiders that point out how weird/bad/unethical a tradition is are actually right. But they should realise that it's not their choose to change it, that there will be resistance, that it will be a slow process and that they might actually be wrong.

This tournament would have been a closed European Championship, got moved to a different country and date and was changed to an Open. All of this without much communication and explanation. I think it makes sense that Europeans are wondering if all these changes are for the better.

But I have made the mental switch. European Championship will be (big) Bilbao Open, I will meet many European and hopefully some non-European friends, I will set some new personal records and maybe a European or WR record and I will enjoy everything this tournament has to offer.

See you all there

Getting a national title or a national record is a pretty big thing and can be a great motivator.

Or a great demotivator. I *am* "German champion" because there was a closed German championship and I won, so it's an accurate title. But I don't like it. This discussion made me aware of it and it gives me another reason for me to not compete in another closed German championship. German Open is different, if I win an event there I won't be "German champion" but "German Open winner". Clumsy maybe, but I don't care.

Stefan, why where you demotivated? Was it because you reached a goal (best in Germany) or because you didn't reach a higher goal (best "individual") ? And why weren't you at German Open this year? Was it because of your diploma/thesis/school, or is the rumor that you didn't came "because someone smoked a year before" true?

 

[Tyson]

I think there is some seriously flawed logic. How can you say the WCA regulations are fair? It is still a process that is only 4 years old.

The regulations are living and breathing, and things may be done a certain way in the past, but circumstances and attitudes change with time. It is completely acceptable to say the WCA regulations themselves are unfair.

This isn't to say that the WCA is useless. It is done to the best of human ability, and the idea that anyone out there can come up with something perfect that solves everything is an immense indicator of myopic thinking and immaturity.

Because it is a new sport, a lot of things were copied by example from other sports. As we move forward, it becomes apparent that there are differences in cubing that are very pleasant compared to other sports, and so it makes sense to capitalize on these things for the overall global improvement.

 

[Jason]

Well, the future holds two scenarios: one where there would be a happy mixture of open and closed competitions to suit most people's taste, and the other where all closed competitions would be banned. (A third scenario would be only closed competitions, which i think nobody would endorse). Well, as mentionned by Tyson, the WCA regulations are young and evolving, and each year, the rules are discussed and revised. But, during the course of a given year, it is only fair to follow the current rules and regulations, (which I remind were debated in a participative manner) otherwise the whole thing would be complete anarchy with people arguing about the regulations (and how they're not fair from their point of view) at every competition. I believe that we should follow the 2008 rules and regulations (giving the right to hold closed competitions), and in 2009, as a community we can revise them, and hold a debate in some sort of democratic particpative way as done previously on the WCA forum. I think that it will transpire that most people would be in favour a of happy balance of open and closed competitions to suit most people's wants. Trying to force everybody into adopting Open only competitions might not be that open.

 

[Stefan]

Stefan, why where you demotivated? Was it because you reached a goal (best in Germany) or because you didn't reach a higher goal (best "individual") ? And why weren't you at German Open this year? Was it because of your diploma/thesis/school, or is the rumor that you didn't came "because someone smoked a year before" true?

I wasn't demotivated. Now I would be, because now I see the possibility of a national title as demotivating/dissuasive.

Being "best in Germany" was not my goal. At least not explicitly. Being best at the competition was my goal.

Main reason for not going to German Open this year was indeed that I finished my diploma thesis shortly before it and I wasn't in the mood for organizing the travel. Smoke was only a minor reason there, although there's a good chance it'll be the reason for me to not go to the European competition.

 

[masterofthebass]

Well, the future holds two scenarios: one where there would be a happy mixture of open and closed competitions to suit most people's taste, and the other where all closed competitions would be banned. (A third scenario would be only closed competitions, which i think nobody would endorse). Well, as mentionned by Tyson, the WCA regulations are young and evolving, and each year, the rules are discussed and revised. But, during the course of a given year, it is only fair to follow the current rules and regulations, (which I remind were debated in a participative manner) otherwise the whole thing would be complete anarchy with people arguing about the regulations (and how they're not fair from their point of view) at every competition. I believe that we should follow the 2008 rules and regulations (giving the right to hold closed competitions), and in 2009, as a community we can revise them, and hold a debate in some sort of democratic particpative way as done previously on the WCA forum. I think that it will transpire that most people would be in favour a of happy balance of open and closed competitions to suit most people's wants. Trying to force everybody into adopting Open only competitions might not be that open.

But do the regulations state that it's not allowed to have an open competition? Right now, we are not trying to change the rules. Here, we are trying to keep a competition that has been declared open, as open (I know it was originally thought of as closed). The organizers have the right to do what they want, and they have seemed to be influenced by people who share the final opinion. If you really want a closed competition that much, go and organize it yourself. Give yourself European Championship medals, and have your own little fun tournament. The reason for an open competition is for the enjoyment of the everyone, not just for people who were born in a certain area.

 

[pete]

Smoke was only a minor reason there, although there's a good chance it'll be the reason for me to not go to the European competition.

competitions are not smoke free ?

anyway, there is a good chance they removed those ashtrays even from toilets at french airports by now

 

[Jason]

Well, maybe we should organise a poll together with all the people who seriously intend on going to the Euro 2008 about which format they would prefer. As it's an association (although not by all definitions, as the board isn't elected), the organisers should seriously take into consideration the choice and concerns of the majority of the people who make up this association participating at this competition, which ever way that majority sways. What do you reckon?

 

[Stefan]

Smoke was only a minor reason there, although there's a good chance it'll be the reason for me to not go to the European competition.

competitions are not smoke free ?

I think most are, but not all, at least not really. Last year's German Open had people smoking right outside the open door to the competition hall and smoke came inside. But I'm not just talking about the competition itself, but also the other places I'll be. For example hotel lobbies or restaurants. And this is what Wikipedia says about smoking in Spain (highlighting by me):

On 1st January, 2006, the law bans smoking in offices, shops, schools, hospitals, cultural centres and on public transport, including stations and airports. The law also states that restaurants and bars over 100 m² can designate a smoking area, but it has to be physically separated and may occupy at most 30% of the total floor space of the establishment. Establishments smaller than 100 sq.m. may choose whether to allow or prohibit smoking (most have allowed it). Additionally, the law prohibits the sale of tobacco products to persons under 18 years of age and limits the places in which tobacco can be sold.[70]

The law went into effect on January 1st, 2006. Months later, the community of Madrid made a decree which states that restaurants over 100 m² are not required to make complete physical separation of the smoking and non-smoking areas. Three other autonomous communities made similar decrees watering down the law, so that smoking areas are only required to be separated with ventilation systems. This measure has been proved inefficient by most scientific literature.[71] See Spanish Antismoking Law (in Spanish)

Since Spain is a strongly decentralized country, a few autonomous communities, such as Madrid, Valencia, La Rioja, and Balearic Islands, have started an official but undeclared boycott to the Law, approved in the Spanish Parliament by unanimity. These communities are also using the courts to even make the law lighter, something impossible as the Ban Law is a Spanish Basic Law that can't be modified by local or autonomous governments.

This to me demonstrates a general Spanish pro-smoking mentality disrespecting non-smokers, disrespecting me. Unless someone convinces me that the Wikipedia article is completely wrong, I find the Spanish situation unacceptable for me.

 

[Bryan]

Like masterofthebass said, it's the organizers who are making this decision. Just as if I held a competition and if I didn't have a certain event and they wanted it, they ask and I comply with the request if I decide I want to.

Tyson, I'm interested in holding a parallel closed competition in Atlanta. It's for the "You helped organize a competition" club, and it's members are restricted to people who helped organize or be a delegate for a competition. Officially, it's a nice way to thank the people who've helped with expanding cubing, unofficially, it's because my times suck, and I would really like to be able to artificially limit the competition so I can have a few more changes to increase my PB's. If people don't mind a huge closed competition with a small parallel open competition, they shouldn't mind a huge open with a small parallel closed.

 

[Tyson]

Maybe the United States should hold a vote of everyone living in the United States on whether or not it should be a Christian country?

Because you know, the majority is by definition correct. Can you imagine what would happen if we always did what the majority wanted? I don't think that's a valid argument.

 

[AvGalen]

I think there is some seriously flawed logic. How can you say the WCA regulations are fair? It is still a process that is only 4 years old.

The regulations are living and breathing, and things may be done a certain way in the past, but circumstances and attitudes change with time. It is completely acceptable to say the WCA regulations themselves are unfair.

This isn't to say that the WCA is useless. It is done to the best of human ability, and the idea that anyone out there can come up with something perfect that solves everything is an immense indicator of myopic thinking and immaturity.

Because it is a new sport, a lot of things were copied by example from other sports. As we move forward, it becomes apparent that there are differences in cubing that are very pleasant compared to other sports, and so it makes sense to capitalize on these things for the overall global improvement.

Maybe that's a language thing Tyson, but I think the rules are fair. They are not perfect and will probably change many more times due to smaller and bigger problems and hindsight. However the current rules have evolved from the previous rules and (as for as I know) the process of forming the rules has always been an open process. To me the rules were formed in accordance to "the rules for creating rules", seem logical and ethical. I won't go as far as calling them 100% fair, but that's not a big problem for me.

I hope I will meet you, Shelley, Clancy and many others (including Stefan) at the US Open this year.

 

[Jason]

The united states is not an association of willing individuals!! I forgot that in the united states, you operated in the interests of a minority

 

[Tyson]

But is the minority ever worth protecting?

The 'state' still has to look over the interests of everyone. If 80% of the population believes in having prayer in school, it isn't really something where you just say, oh, sorry to the 20% and tell them to go somewhere else.

 

[Tyson]

I hope I will meet you, Shelley, Clancy and many others (including Stefan) at the US Open this year.

Yes, I hope so too. It will help me bring my plan to completion! Oh I have grand plans.

 

[Jason]

in some cases, yes, in other cases, no. Anyway, I reckon I'm going to stop arguing now. In this particular instance, I would have preferred to have seen a closed competition (and it's nothing to do with prizes or ego) , but hey, it's been decided otherwise. Next time hopefully, the decision process will be more transparent. Happy cubing!!

 

[Tyson]

I think you're more likely just trying to rationalize things for this particular case. I really don't think this change will make any noticeable difference.

 

[Jason]

Well, in a truly democratic society, laws are voted by an elected parlament, and those laws apply to everybody. The 20% of the population that doesn't want to pay tax?, well that's tough. (by the way, it's you who went on a tangent talking about the US and christians) But your last comment is right, it won't make a noticable diffence in practice for the Euro 2008.

 

[pete]

what Wikipedia says about smoking in Spain

hmmm, and I actually thought switzerland was the worst offender in europe