a new chinese 7x7 with VCUBE quality

[Escher]

So 3x3's & pyraminxs AREN'T KO's anymore. But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give incentives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic? If you can't, you I'll just leave it at that. I don't wish to argue this anymore.

I hope that the speedsolving forum will never censor discussion of KO puzzles. I'd much rather I knew exactly what was and what wasn't a KO from sites like popbuying, dealextreme etc, rather than just having to guess because the puzzle forums remove or censor all discussion of them. In fact in that kind of censored environment, I would just buy whatever I felt like.

Just so you know, since they are made in China, where they do not uphold foreign patent laws, they aren't 'made illegally'.

This.

The primary difference between the twistypuzzles forum and this forum is not censorship, it's maturity, from what I've seen on these boards. This is a forum where (mostly kids) like doing a specific task as fast as they can, so they're interested in any hardware that allows them to complete said task faster. Twistypuzzles is a forum where (mostly adults) are interested in the design and production of mechanical puzzles, and hence they care about the legal and ethical issues surrounding said puzzles.

Don't get me wrong, I like fiddling around with my plastic toys quickly just as much as the next guy and find this forum a useful resource, otherwise I wouldn't be a member here, but it's a shame that most people here don't see beyond buying toys on the internet. Twistypuzzles isn't a place where people are sticklers about legal issues, it's a place where people have informed opinions about ethical issues.

I don't understand your point at all.

Twistypuzzles is more mature, therefore we don't talk about KOs.
Speedsolving is more immature, therefore you shouldn't talk about KOs.

Surely it should be:

Twistypuzzles is more mature, and can recognise the difference between 'genuine' and 'KO', therefore we don't talk about KOs.
Speedsolving is more immature, so the majority of visitors cannot tell the difference between 'genuine' and 'KO', therefore we should educate them about what is and what isn't a KO and why buying them is discouraged.

!?

 

[daniel0731ex]

yeah i think the knockoff issue is more about ethics than law. it becomes weak if you use whether if a puzzle have valid patent or not, as most tony fisher's puzzles are not patented.

 

[daniel0731ex]

So 3x3's & pyraminxs AREN'T KO's anymore. But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give intensives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic? If you can't, you I'll just leave it at that. I don't wish to argue this anymore.

This.

The primary difference between the twistypuzzles forum and this forum is not censorship, it's maturity, from what I've seen on these boards. This is a forum where (mostly kids) like doing a specific task as fast as they can, so they're interested in any hardware that allows them to complete said task faster. Twistypuzzles is a forum where (mostly adults) are interested in the design and production of mechanical puzzles, and hence they care about the legal and ethical issues surrounding said puzzles.

Don't get me wrong, I like fiddling around with my plastic toys quickly just as much as the next guy and find this forum a useful resource, otherwise I wouldn't be a member here, but it's a shame that most people here don't see beyond buying toys on the internet. Twistypuzzles isn't a place where people are sticklers about legal issues, it's a place where people have informed opinions about ethical issues.

+1

that's exactly what my point is.

 

[DavidWoner]

This.

The primary difference between the twistypuzzles forum and this forum is not censorship, it's maturity, from what I've seen on these boards. This is a forum where (mostly kids) like doing a specific task as fast as they can, so they're interested in any hardware that allows them to complete said task faster. Twistypuzzles is a forum where (mostly adults) are interested in the design and production of mechanical puzzles, and hence they care about the legal and ethical issues surrounding said puzzles.

Don't get me wrong, I like fiddling around with my plastic toys quickly just as much as the next guy and find this forum a useful resource, otherwise I wouldn't be a member here, but it's a shame that most people here don't see beyond buying toys on the internet. Twistypuzzles isn't a place where people are sticklers about legal issues, it's a place where people have informed opinions about ethical issues.

I don't understand your point at all.

Twistypuzzles is more mature, therefore we don't talk about KOs.
Speedsolving is more immature, therefore you shouldn't talk about KOs.

Surely it should be:

Twistypuzzles is more mature, and can recognise the difference between 'genuine' and 'KO', therefore we don't talk about KOs.
Speedsolving is more immature, so the majority of visitors cannot tell the difference between 'genuine' and 'KO', therefore we should educate them about what is and what isn't a KO and why buying them is discouraged.

!?

How can people on twistypuzzles have "informed opinions" when all of the information is being deleted? Censoring information about KOs undoubtedly does more harm than good. As I see it there are two kinds of people who buys KOs:

People who don't care: They are just looking for the cheapest puzzle. They don't care if something is a KO or not, they just want to save money. So lets say they are searching for cubes and find the KO 7x7. They either think that 1) they found a KO 7x7, and buy it because its cheap, 2) they found a legit v-7 for a really good price, and buy it because it is cheap. Censorship has no effect on these people.

People who don't know: These are people who do not support KOs, but are not very informed. Lets say they also come across the KO 7x7. If all the information about KOs was censored, they would have no way of knowing this was a KO, and would purchase it, thinking they were supporting v-cubes. However, when the information is public, this person is able to make a truly informed decision and not purchase the KO.

So in a way, speedsolving is doing more to stop the sale of KOs than tp is.

This may seem like a strange comparison, but I am reminded of abstinence-only sex education. The goal is to prevent teen pregnancies and the spread of diseases by just saying "Just don't have sex. Don't do it. Nope, just don't do it" And what you end up with is a bunch of kids who are uneducated about safesex practices, resulting in even more pregnancies and diseases.

I guess what I'm saying is that education is the best course of action, as ignorance always leads to problems.

 

[rookie]

i'd buy a cheap ko in a heart beat if it was as good as the v7

 

[dunpeal2064]

I will forever think that Hillary Clinton runs this site if discussion of KO's gets banned.

Cencorship is not the way! Information is! if you think KO's are horrible then tell us about it so we'll KNOW. but hiding it is just like sheltering a child... it often goes more in the other direction.

 

[qqwref]

But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give intensives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic?

Your argument is invalid: just because something is illegal or unethical does not mean it should never be discussed. We've had discussions about pot, bullying, religious belief, politics, etc. in the past and just because one person thinks the topic is unethical does not mean nobody should be allowed to talk about it. Woner's comparison to abstinence-only sex education is an apt one: people are going to be buying cheap Chinese cubes (and have sex) whether you tell them they should do it or should not do it (or whether you ignore the subject, as information does travel). So if they're going to buy the KOs anyway (eventually), why not at least educate people?

I guess the most moral approach would be to ask everyone making a KO topic to add a disclaimer in red saying that purchasing KOs hurts the real inventors, etc. etc. I imagine this would get annoying after a while, but the information would all be out there and nobody would really be able to complain that the topic is only there to advertise the KO products.

I will forever think that Hillary Clinton runs this site if discussion of KO's gets banned.

You think Hillary Clinton runs twistypuzzles?

 

[Dirk BerGuRK]

anti-pop design

I always get a kick out of that.

 

[puzzleaddict]

I will forever think that Hillary Clinton runs this site if discussion of KO's gets banned.

Cencorship is not the way! Information is! if you think KO's are horrible then tell us about it so we'll KNOW. but hiding it is just like sheltering a child... it often goes more in the other direction.

KO discussion is not bad, its when you advertise for the KO's that it becomes bad. You can have a KO discussion without posting links to KO's. Twistypuzzles has plenty of KO discussions that are allowed.

 

[Cheese_Board]

I will forever think that Hillary Clinton runs this site if discussion of KO's gets banned.

Cencorship is not the way! Information is! if you think KO's are horrible then tell us about it so we'll KNOW. but hiding it is just like sheltering a child... it often goes more in the other direction.

KO discussion is not bad, its when you advertise for the KO's that it becomes bad. You can have a KO discussion without posting links to KO's. Twistypuzzles has plenty of KO discussions that are allowed.

+1

 

[Me Myself & Pi]

Ugh! Can't resist! Must continue debate!

These 3x3's aren't doing the harm here. (Any cuber starts out with a Rubik's 3x3 anyway, & then moves on to buying better cubes.) They had 20 years to make a very good profit from them. It's the KO's of the newer puzzles that have been coming out that we need to worry about. Like the V-Cubes, Void Cube, Floppy Cube, etc... How would any of you guys like to have invented & produced a puzzle. Then a company started making KO's of it. Would any of you be happy if people started posting topics on popular forum sites about the KO's, & possibly how better they are? Here you're trying to pay off your initial design costs before you can even start thinking about producing better puzzles! (In the case of the V-Cubes guys, please just be patient for the new & better puzzles.)

it's not right to shut-out information from people just because it is about unethical things, as you cannot deny its existence. there is no reason to make people ignorant of what is happening. you cannot stop people from knowing what is going on in the other side of the world, nor could you stop me from revealing the truth.

but is also exposing us to what KO's look like and where KO's are sold and so educate us in avoiding them

I'd much rather I knew exactly what was and what wasn't a KO from sites like popbuying, dealextreme etc...

People who don't know: These are people who do not support KOs, but are not very informed. Lets say they also come across the KO 7x7. If all the information about KOs was censored, they would have no way of knowing this was a KO, and would purchase it, thinking they were supporting v-cubes...

I guess what I'm saying is that education is the best course of action, as ignorance always leads to problems.

Cencorship is not the way! Information is!

Guys, I'm not for completely shrouding KO's. But why not just say, "There are KO's of V-Cubes. So if you a see a 6x6 or a 7x7, don't buy unless it has a V-Cube Logo!". We don't need to say that,

a new chinese 7x7 with VCUBE quality

is coming out. I mean, just look at some of the comments already in this topic:

China cube cheappp.. Mmmm me likey.

i'd buy a cheap ko in a heart beat if it was as good as the v7

I'll probably get these becuase I'm going to boycott v-cube becuase they refused to send me a center for a 7x7x7...

(Oh, & sorry to hear that Mr.OneHanded. If it makes things any better, I can send you one of my extra center caps for $2 for shipping if you live in the US. I've got a yellow & black one.) Now, in certain cases, I feel it's best to inform people on what are KO's on websites like Cube4You. That's a very popular site & people are going to see the puzzles there regardless if they heard about them here or not. But we don't need to give people information about KO V-Cubes on other, less popular, sites. (Oh, & just for the record, DealExtream seems to sell of lot of KO's. I just stay away from the website completely!) Mr. Verdes & his son worked way to long on producing these great puzzles to be treated this. We need to respect that!

For those who haven't seen it, I've made a video about this. I go into detail about everything I've said there:
[youtube]<object width="873" height="525"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NRGxTC5xOCQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NRGxTC5xOCQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="873" height="525"></embed></object>[/youtube]

 

[daniel0731ex]

UPDATE:
found it on dealextreme:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32043
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32044
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32045

 

[Hyprul 9-ty2]

Wheres the normal one!?!

 

[MichaelP.]

I will never buy KO V-cubes for two reasons.

1. Its a KO.

2. I almost lost a piece in MichaelP's KO 6x6.

If I wasn't aware that I was getting a knock off, and by buying it, I made someone else NOT get ANY V-cube knock offs, am I rectified?

 

[dunpeal2064]

I can definately see not advertising for the KO's. I suppose i misunderstood, I thought the topic was eliminating the discussion. I completely agree that if a copyright is in place, we should steer people in the right direction.

but as long as we are making the information available. =)

now.... would it be improper to buy a v-cube and then buy a KO for spare parts? this seems important if people are having problems getting spare pieces. In which case these KO's could still be of some use. (aside the fact that they are way cheaper in the first place)

 

[rookie]

UPDATE:
found it on dealextreme:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32043
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32044
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32045

LOLOLOL thats such a nice reply to memyselfandpi

 

[Hyprul 9-ty2]

I can definately see not advertising for the KO's. I suppose i misunderstood, I thought the topic was eliminating the discussion. I completely agree that if a copyright is in place, we should steer people in the right direction.

but as long as we are making the information available. =)

now.... would it be improper to buy a v-cube and then buy a KO for spare parts? this seems important if people are having problems getting spare pieces. In which case these KO's could still be of some use. (aside the fact that they are way cheaper in the first place)

I don't think the parts would mesh together well for some reason, I have no idea why I think that way. Maybe different plastic quality. Hmmm:confused:

 

[dunpeal2064]

that would make sense. I don't own a v-cube (or a KO version) so it seems possible that it wouldn't work.

also.... i saw that pillowed 6x6 KO... or is it a ko? because i didnt know of a pillowed 6x6 anywhere else...

 

[Hyprul 9-ty2]

Pillowed 6x6 is definitely a knockoff, V-Cube hasn't started producing those yet.
I want a pillowed cube

 

[Tim Major]

So 3x3's & pyraminxs AREN'T KO's anymore. But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give intensives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic? If you can't, you I'll just leave it at that. I don't wish to argue this anymore.

I've been talking to Mefferts for awhile through email, and somehow I mentioned a Cube4you pyraminx. In response,
"Just for your info, the Pyraminx was an illegal copy."
So Uwe and Ulrich still think they're illegal copies.