9x9?

[TomZ]

What you say is true in the US. However, we are not talking about a counterfeit cube. It would be counterfeit if the Chinese knock off were trying to sell them *AS V Cubes*

Oops. Wrong choice of words.

But instead they are probably selling them as their own name brand and so we have a case of copied design (possibly violating patents) but not counterfeit. This is not illegal to sell or buy. Verdes may try and file suit against them but good luck with that in China.

In United States law, an infringement may occur where the defendant has made, used, sold, offered to sell, or imported an infringing invention or its equivalent.[3] One also commits indirect infringement if he actively and knowingly induces another to infringe, and is liable for that infringement. Types of "indirect infringement" include "contributory infringement" and "induced infringement."

Obviously selling is illegal, and buying could constitute 'induced infringement'. Regardless of its legality, it's unethical.

Also, it is not clear to me that any patent has been violated. It is possible that the cubes have accomplished the 9x9 mechanism in a different innovative way. I seriously doubt it but its not impossible I suppose. I have not studied either mechanism nor gone through the patents in detail so I am not qualified to mention a violation. Its only suspicion at this time.

Wait... Did you actually read the first post of this topic? It shows pictures of the cube's mechanism.

@Jason & Ethan: Wohoo!

 

[Pitzu]

Don't let Mr. Hughey to get one!

 

[Mike Hughey]

Don't let Mr. Hughey to get one!

See, I'm afraid if I don't get one, you'll beat me to it.

 

[MatsBergsten]

Don't let Mr. Hughey to get one!

See, I'm afraid if I don't get one, you'll beat me to it.

Have either of you two even estimated the time it will take one of you to solve it blind??
2-3 hours?

 

[Mike Hughey]

Don't let Mr. Hughey to get one!

See, I'm afraid if I don't get one, you'll beat me to it.

Have either of you two even estimated the time it will take one of you to solve it blind??
2-3 hours?

A 7x7x7 is 212 pieces to solve. A 9x9x9 is 380 pieces. Considering my best 7x7x7 2-cube multi attempts have taken around 3 hours, I would think I should be able to at least match that. So yeah, 3 hours should work. 2 1/2 might be possible.

 

[luke1984]

What you say is true in the US. However, we are not talking about a counterfeit cube. It would be counterfeit if the Chinese knock off were trying to sell them *AS V Cubes*

Oops. Wrong choice of words.

But instead they are probably selling them as their own name brand and so we have a case of copied design (possibly violating patents) but not counterfeit. This is not illegal to sell or buy. Verdes may try and file suit against them but good luck with that in China.

In United States law, an infringement may occur where the defendant has made, used, sold, offered to sell, or imported an infringing invention or its equivalent.[3] One also commits indirect infringement if he actively and knowingly induces another to infringe, and is liable for that infringement. Types of "indirect infringement" include "contributory infringement" and "induced infringement."

Obviously selling is illegal, and buying could constitute 'induced infringement'. Regardless of its legality, it's unethical.

Also, it is not clear to me that any patent has been violated. It is possible that the cubes have accomplished the 9x9 mechanism in a different innovative way. I seriously doubt it but its not impossible I suppose. I have not studied either mechanism nor gone through the patents in detail so I am not qualified to mention a violation. Its only suspicion at this time.

Wait... Did you actually read the first post of this topic? It shows pictures of the cube's mechanism.

@Jason & Ethan: Wohoo!

You seem to be the only other person who "gets it".

 

[Paul Wagner]

In situations like these, you should follow this analysis:

1) Has a patent been used?
2) Was the patentholder compensated?
3) Were any local laws broken?
4) Were any internation laws broken?

With the information that I have and the knowledge I have gathered, I guess the answers would be

1) Yes, the F9 is using the V-Patents.
2) No, Verdes didn't license this or gets compensated in any other way
3) I don't know for sure. It seems that this "might" be allowed in China
4) I don't know for sure. It seems to me that exporting it (to most other countries) is probably illegal

So as far as I know it would be illegal for almost everyone (except MAYBE the Chinese) to buy one. That also means that it isn't very useful debating about "Verdes losing money or not". Buying something that is illegal is bad, period.

That doesn't mean it isn't tempting though, so I hope that the F9 will become an officially licensed product soon and that we will see an official V9 on the market as well.

It is not illegal to buy something that violates a patent law. Consumers are not expected to have the expertise nor the resources to determine whether or not something is violating somebody's patent. When was the last time you checked out that all the synthetic & patented chemicals in your OTC pain meds were legit?

But I agree that these should not be purchased if they are known to violate patents.. just because it is immoral not illegal.

WRONG, you live in the US so marijuana is illegal for you as well. It's an illegal product not under the same classification but it's an illegal product and it's illegal to buy it as well.

 

[cuberman0312]

Why do they skip the evens? Can someone explain it in detail?

even cubes are harder to make rather than odd cubes. That would explain why the v-cube 6 sucks

 

[veazer]

I'd buy a 9x9 just for non-cuber friends to gawk at it. Really.

I second that.

 

[Ton]

In situations like these, you should follow this analysis:

1) Has a patent been used?
2) Was the patentholder compensated?
3) Were any local laws broken?
4) Were any internation laws broken?

With the information that I have and the knowledge I have gathered, I guess the answers would be

1) Yes, the F9 is using the V-Patents.
2) No, Verdes didn't license this or gets compensated in any other way
3) I don't know for sure. It seems that this "might" be allowed in China
4) I don't know for sure. It seems to me that exporting it (to most other countries) is probably illegal

So as far as I know it would be illegal for almost everyone (except MAYBE the Chinese) to buy one. That also means that it isn't very useful debating about "Verdes losing money or not". Buying something that is illegal is bad, period.

That doesn't mean it isn't tempting though, so I hope that the F9 will become an officially licensed product soon and that we will see an official V9 on the market as well.

Well we are not lawyers, we can not make statements that something is illegal. Chinese patent regulation is quite different

China is a first-to-file system... see more on this in articles below

"There are three types of patent granted in China - patents of invention, utility model, and industrial design."

"China, unlike the United States, is a first-to-file system. This means that if two inventors file a patent application for the same innovation, the first to file the application with SIPO will be granted the patent even if the other inventor was the first to invent"

This article explains it more details

So the legal question is:
-is it legal to buy a legal Chinese products from outside China for import when there exist a patent in your country

I guess, yes this is illegal for a company where there is a patent in that country to import a clone copy, for the domestic market it is a legal product

Some related to this
Clones are perfectly legal, says Shuanghuan

For cubers it is the same dilemma as bootlegs

My conclusion as a non-lawyer:
It will be almost impossible to prosecuting individuals when they buy online at a Chinese website a legal -in China- Chinese product. I do not think individuals can be hold legally responsible for patent infringements -even if it is proven-

In the end it will be moral/ethical issue for us

 

[EE-Cuber]

In situations like these, you should follow this analysis:

1) Has a patent been used?
2) Was the patentholder compensated?
3) Were any local laws broken?
4) Were any internation laws broken?

With the information that I have and the knowledge I have gathered, I guess the answers would be

1) Yes, the F9 is using the V-Patents.
2) No, Verdes didn't license this or gets compensated in any other way
3) I don't know for sure. It seems that this "might" be allowed in China
4) I don't know for sure. It seems to me that exporting it (to most other countries) is probably illegal

So as far as I know it would be illegal for almost everyone (except MAYBE the Chinese) to buy one. That also means that it isn't very useful debating about "Verdes losing money or not". Buying something that is illegal is bad, period.

That doesn't mean it isn't tempting though, so I hope that the F9 will become an officially licensed product soon and that we will see an official V9 on the market as well.

Well we are not lawyers, we can not make statements that something is illegal. Chinese patent regulation is quite different

China is a first-to-file system... see more on this in articles below

"There are three types of patent granted in China - patents of invention, utility model, and industrial design."

"China, unlike the United States, is a first-to-file system. This means that if two inventors file a patent application for the same innovation, the first to file the application with SIPO will be granted the patent even if the other inventor was the first to invent"

This article explains it more details

So the legal question is:
-is it legal to buy a legal Chinese products from outside China for import when there exist a patent in your country

I guess, yes this is illegal for a company where there is a patent in that country to import a clone copy, for the domestic market it is a legal product

Some related to this
Clones are perfectly legal, says Shuanghuan

For cubers it is the same dilemma as bootlegs

My conclusion as a non-lawyer:
It will be almost impossible to prosecuting individuals when they buy online at a Chinese website a legal -in China- Chinese product.

Exactly, some of the folks just arent understanding this.

Illegal to violate patents and sell for profit - YES, certainly in US.

Illegal to BUY? - probably NOT. Would you ever get prosecuted even if it were illegal - NO

Unethical to BUY? - Yes of course you shoudl NOT purchase based on ground of ethics only *if* it is true that a patent is violated.

Can anyone claim that the internal mechanism is exactly copied by just looking at a photo -Not really, so I dont understand what all the whoo-ha is about it violating a patent? Who here has examined Verdes patent & compared it with a disassmbled chinese knockoff that they have held for close examination?

I havn't so I dont know about who violated what. I wouldnt buy one if it was established and known to violate any patents but until then . . .

 

[EE-Cuber]

WRONG, you live in the US so marijuana is illegal for you as well. It's an illegal product not under the same classification but it's an illegal product and it's illegal to buy it as well.

Yes of course Marijuana is illegal..umm thats not the same situation as a consumer purchasing a knock-off product.

 

[veazer]

WRONG, you live in the US so marijuana is illegal for you as well. It's an illegal product not under the same classification but it's an illegal product and it's illegal to buy it as well.

Yes of course Marijuana is illegal..umm thats not the same situation as a consumer purchasing a knock-off product.

Yeah... violating illegal drug laws and violating international patent agreements are just a little different.

 

[DcF1337]

Damn, you guys are pretty hardcore when it comes to debating.

 

[TomZ]

"Can anyone claim that the internal mechanism is exactly copied by just looking at a photo -Not really, so I dont understand what all the whoo-ha is about it violating a patent? Who here has examined Verdes patent & compared it with a disassmbled chinese knockoff that they have held for close examination?"
While nobody but a court can make the decision, it's just blatantly obvious it violates the patent. The V-Patent has a bunch of drawings in it that match the cube (near) exactly. The only difference is they added a bump near the corner foot, which to me shows they knew they were violating a patent and added something on their own to 'evade' the law.

"Illegal to BUY? - probably NOT. Would you ever get prosecuted even if it were illegal - NO"
I don't know about your laws, but *knowingly* buying an illegal product can't be legal, can it? It's very unlikely they'll come after you (it will be near impossible to prove you knew it was illegal) but that doesn't make it right.

"Yeah... violating illegal drug laws and violating international patent agreements are just a little different."
Nah. Over here marijuana is perfectly legal but as for those V-Cubes, not so much.
A better comparison would be buying a stolen bike. If I buy a bike for $100 and it turns out to be stolen, I'll not be charged. If I buy the same bike at $25 I'll be guilty of knowingly buying stolen goods.

 

[Paul Wagner]

Well most of us are in USA, and not Europe. But the internal mech is the same, look at the 6x6 and 7x7 chinese.

 

[Swoncen]

Well most of us are in USA, and not Europe. But the internal mech is the same, look at the 6x6 and 7x7 chinese.

Why do you think that most of us live in the USA?
From the WCA:

USA: 1707
Europe: 1711
Asia: 2383

 

[TobiasDaneels]

Well most of us are in USA, and not Europe. But the internal mech is the same, look at the 6x6 and 7x7 chinese.

Why do you think that most of us live in the USA?
From the WCA:

USA: 1707
Europe: 1711
Asia: 2383

I think he means forum users, and I think it's true.
Most users on this forum are American I think.
But I don't see the point of that statement...

 

[Swoncen]

Well most of us are in USA, and not Europe. But the internal mech is the same, look at the 6x6 and 7x7 chinese.

Why do you think that most of us live in the USA?
From the WCA:

USA: 1707
Europe: 1711
Asia: 2383

I think he means forum users, and I think it's true.
Most users on this forum are American I think.
But I don't see the point of that statement...

That is just a guess.

 

[Escher]

Well most of us are in USA, and not Europe. But the internal mech is the same, look at the 6x6 and 7x7 chinese.

Why do you think that most of us live in the USA?
From the WCA:

USA: 1707
Europe: 1711
Asia: 2383

I think he means forum users, and I think it's true.
Most users on this forum are American I think.
But I don't see the point of that statement...

That is just a guess.

How do you know the ones from the US aren't just the noisier ones?
EDIT: wink = sarcasm