Is CFOP actually rotationless?

[T_adapledge]

Hi, this might have been talked about before but I just started thinking about it and wanted to know what other people thought.

Basically, surely CFOP is technically rotationless but we just haven't developed good enough fingertricks for F and B moves. So could rotationless CFOP ever surpass standard CFOP if we spent enough time practicing the fingertricks? Is there anyone who currently uses this version of CFOP?

This might be a stupid question or it might have already been discussed but I was just curious to know if anyone actually practices rotationless CFOP.

 

[cuber314159]

Well many of my giant cube solves are completely rotationless:

The first few solves aren't but some later ones are completely rotationless, I suspect that's rather different though since my entire hand is required for each move.

 

[Swagrid]

Goin from RU/LU turning to FU/BU is too harsh a transition, and sustained FU/BU turning is just plain bad. It requires too awkward and specific an approach to so. That said, if you could somehow flip the edges to be good edges during the cross, then you wouldn't need F or B moves, and it could be rotationless.

 

[espeed]

Adding to swagrid you can look for (pseudo) Eocross discussions. Imo not worth it

 

[Thom S.]

but we just haven't developed good enough fingertricks for F and B moves.

YOU haven't.
Long Answer
Rotationless CFOP was "more common" in the 2008-2014 Timeframe before fingertricks took on the form they have currently. What I mean by that is that(a certain percentage of cubers) solvers 10+ years ago didn't try to stay in home grip for the majority of the solve, but instead had a much floatier style of turning with the dominant hand being more in the air, therefore able to have a faster transition into F/B inserts from the top.
How floaty floaty really is depended on the cuber. The famous Teller used to be very floaty in his turning(and I think at one point him and me were the only cubers who would perform the "Flipped Edge" F2L case without regripping and without grip change in solves).
This style of turning is quite unoptimized, but remember, practically nobody at that time had e.g. their PLLs all start from the same grip, so fingertricks were less optimized.(Don't get the wrong impression, algs had many fingertricks(whatever that's supposed to mean) even in 2008 and before, but you would change grip to start the alg and change grip afterwards, that is what I'm getting at).

Short answer
Todays suggested turning is faster trading optimized finger movement for some rotations.

That said, if you could somehow flip the edges to be good edges during the cross, then you wouldn't need F or B moves, and it could be rotationless.

If only there was a way to do that.
If we had a Method that flips edges during the cross, I'm sure it would spark a lot of discussion that leads nowhere fast be an entrypoint to other advanced techniques.

 

[cubenerd74]

That said, if you could somehow flip the edges to be good edges during the cross, then you wouldn't need F or B moves, and it could be rotationless.

You can. That's called ZZ.

 

[Arcanist]

You can. That's called ZZ.

You do realize that he uses zz right?

 

[Deleted member 36445]

1. you can use wide moves like f, r and l to solve pairs differently.

 Twizzle link 

f R' f'

 Twizzle link 

f R f'

 Twizzle link 

f R2 f'

 Twizzle link 

l' U L U' L' U' l

 Twizzle link 

r U' R' U R U r'

 Twizzle link 

r U' r' U2 r U r' R U R'

---

you can also use a M or F setup to transform the case in 2gen f2l case:

2. M moves will affect orientation of edges, so you use that to avoid a y rotation.

 Twizzle link 

M' U L' U' L U2 L' U l

 Twizzle link 

M' U R U R' U R U' R' U M

3. there is a technique that is to solve the LF slot by doing a F setup to get a 2 gen case to solve
thats caleld FRUF' f2l.

F <R,U> F' - Speed Cube Database

Algorithms for F <R,U> F'

speedcubedb.com

 

[SpedCube]

Building on this discussion: What's the best way to break the bad habit of cube rotations? I've gotten way better, but for f2l specifically I do quite a few (my excuse was "well max park does them all the time!", but, im not max park lol sooo)

 

[Deleted member 36445]

Goin from RU/LU turning to FU/BU is too harsh a transition, and sustained FU/BU turning is just plain bad. It requires too awkward and specific an approach to so. That said, if you could somehow flip the edges to be good edges during the cross, then you wouldn't need F or B moves, and it could be rotationless.

dude thats just ZZ ._.

r/swooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh

 

[Horizoncubes]

I don't really think it is rotation less especially when you get the JA perm if that is what you mean.

 

[Deleted member 36445]

Building on this discussion: What's the best way to break the bad habit of cube rotations? I've gotten way better, but for f2l specifically I do quite a few (my excuse was "well max park does them all the time!", but, im not max park lol sooo)

let the cube steady, and rotate around it.

 

[Deleted member 36445]

I don't really think it is rotation less especially when you get the JA perm if that is what you mean.

R' U L' U2 R U' R' U2 R L

where rotation?

 

[Horizoncubes]

R' U L' U2 R U' R' U2 R L

where rotation?

I use this algorithm. I have never seen that one in my life.

 

[SpedCube]

R' U L' U2 R U' R' U2 R L

where rotation?

lol I literally just learned that an hour ago, and that is the one I use.

 

[Horizoncubes]

lol I literally just learned that an hour ago, and that is the one I use.

thats funny

 

[Deleted member 36445]

I use this algorithm. I have never seen that one in my life.

yeah, it is really fast, I use that too.

but you can solve any pll with no rotations, as edge permutation can be solved with <RU> and corner permutation can be solved with <LUR>
but sometimes rotating is faster, don't you think? food for thought

 

[Deleted member 27249]

Roux is the best method is rotationless.
Roux have less Algs.
Roux>>>CFOP

 

[Horizoncubes]

yeah, it is really fast, I use that too.

but you can solve any pll with no rotations, as edge permutation can be solved with <RU> and corner permutation can be solved with <LUR>
but sometimes rotating is faster, don't you think? food for thought

True. Rotations are very fast, but when you don't rotate it is love at first sight!

 

[Horizoncubes]

Roux is the best method is rotationless.
Roux have less Algs.
Roux>>>CFOP

debatable