So recently I switched to ZZ and I want to learn an variant and have narrowed down to ZZ-A or ZZ-CT. ZZ-A is a lot of algorithms and will take a long time to learn. ZZ-CT is less than half the algorithms of ZZ-A, but I don't just want to choose it blindly and learn 200 algorithms just to learn the method isn't that good, at least for me. What are you recommendations?
ZZ-A vs ZZ-CT
- Thread starter EvanCuber
- Start date
OreKehStrah
Veteran
As far as we can tell, ZZ-A will always be at the top of the tier lists. CT certainly isn’t bad though. TTLL is improving and is getting comparable with ZBLL. You could probably get sub9 with CT. You would want to learn slot neutrality ideally, and there are additional alg sets you can learn as well.
What do you mean
OreKehStrah
Veteran
Instead of doing TSLE for the front right slot only, you would want to learn to do it for all four slots. Otherwise you’re at another disadvantage compared to ZZ-A
PiKeeper
Veteran
I'd try out zz-d, it's about the same number of algs as ct but is arguably faster.
OreKehStrah
Veteran
ZZ-D is also quite good but CPLS is worse to learn than TSLE, and basically is only practical for solving front pairs last.
PiKeeper
Veteran
CPLS might be worse than TSLE, but 2gll is imo the fastest final step of any method (especially compared to ttll). I think it could be good if you're front 2 slot neutral and either you leave one of those for last or you do ocll+pll if a back pair is last.
But wouldn't that be four times as many algs? At that point it would be more than ZZ-A
PetraPine
Veteran
just learn front two, back two wouldn't ever be worth due to bad recognition
LukasCubes
Veteran
CT has lower movecount and has better recog for TSLE and TTLL
I hope you can back this up because your statement seems to be false.
You can literally just mirror the TSLE algs; if you're right dominant, you should already be prioritising left slots / left block anyway.
ZZ-d is not CPLS. ZZ-d is solving CP while finishing the left block; CPLS is solving CP while finishing F2L.
GodCubing
Veteran
there could be a CPLS recognition developed for back slots
PiKeeper
Veteran
As xyzzy said, what's the evidence there? Most people agree it's worse.
Nowadays, people use zz-d to mean cpls+2gll.
LukasCubes
Veteran
Its just my opinion, why would I have evidence? lol I dont want to be in another argument.
StrategySam
Regular
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2021
- Messages
- 62
ZZ CT is cooler therefore better. Case Closed.
PapaSmurf
Veteran
Your opinion is wrong though, all I'm saying.
As has already been mentioned, ZZ-D is now just anything that forces 2GLL, just as CT would count as a C "subvariant". I know what you mean, as ZZ-D was originally solving CP before right block, but that's been demonstrated many times as being unviable for speedsolving, so ZZ-D is now used for the much more viable CPLS. Either way, any ZZ-D variant is more moves than A and has worse recog. Also, slot neutrality isn't easy (and is basically the same number of cases as ZZ-A).
CT is good, but it's not great, due to movecount, slot neutrality, worse algs than PLL and a few other minor reasons. If you want to not do ZBLL, you're just as well off sticking with OCLL/PLL (28 algs) and learning a few OLSs/ZBLLs/COLLs here and there. To get sub 8, ZBLL isn't needed (although is recommended). Also, you only need 2GLL, TUL and diags really. The rest could be helpful, but don't have the same effort/reward ratio.
TL;DR - ZZ-A is superior, even with about 200 fewer algs than that 493 target.
Swagrid
Veteran
Hello, full CT user here to weigh in on the subject
CT is very fun and feels incredibly cool, but for speed it's not very nice. Can produce some slick singles but you'd be overall better off without it.
ZZ with OCLL/PLL is just a bit better than CT, imo. OCLL PLL with TUL zbll rolls CT.
But if you really enjoy CT a lot like I do, might as well go for it. Learn 2 look to get a feel for it.
CT is very fun and feels incredibly cool, but for speed it's not very nice. Can produce some slick singles but you'd be overall better off without it.
ZZ with OCLL/PLL is just a bit better than CT, imo. OCLL PLL with TUL zbll rolls CT.
But if you really enjoy CT a lot like I do, might as well go for it. Learn 2 look to get a feel for it.
Swagrid
Veteran
For TSLE, recognition from the back wouldn't be any worse. You never need to use the corner in the slot to recog.
ruffleduck
Veteran
ZZ-OP (OCLL->PLL) is where every ZZ user should start. It is only 28 algs, and you likely know them all already. These algs apply to pretty much every ZZ variant, so there's nothing to lose starting here. Also, despite being very few algs, it's pretty fast.
ZZ-VH (COLL->EPLL) is overrated. I don't think it's worth using tbh. OCLL/PLL is faster on average. Just skip straight to learning basic ZBLL.
ZZ-A (ZBLL) is currently the fastest variant. Most ZZ users only learn a small chunk of ZBLL, and use OP for cases they haven't learned.
ZZ-B (phasing->ZZLL) is an interesting variant that @OreKehStrah says is a good stepping stone towards ZZ-A. I haven't really explored it much, so I can't say much about it.
OK now ZZ-C family!!
ZZ-C (OCLS->PLL). Lots of good cases worth learning here; but it's a lot of algs, and a lot of the time CT or HW is better because the TSLE or WSLC alg is shorter.
ZZ-CT (TSLE->TTLL). Swag variant. Algs are currently being developed.
ZZ-HW (WSLC->WDLL). Swag variant. Algs are highly undeveloped, as the variant was very recently rediscovered by me. I am currently developing the algs (which is why the D is in WDLL), and they are very promising. Check out my ZZ sheet to see the WIP WSLC and WDLL algs.
Now ZZ-D (CPLS->2GLL). I don't have much to say about it. it's a solid variant. Good for OH. I personally don't like CPLS recog, but that's just a me problem.
I don't know much about other variants that haven't been explored much.
I personally plan to do ZZ-C CT HW option select.
ZZ-VH (COLL->EPLL) is overrated. I don't think it's worth using tbh. OCLL/PLL is faster on average. Just skip straight to learning basic ZBLL.
ZZ-A (ZBLL) is currently the fastest variant. Most ZZ users only learn a small chunk of ZBLL, and use OP for cases they haven't learned.
ZZ-B (phasing->ZZLL) is an interesting variant that @OreKehStrah says is a good stepping stone towards ZZ-A. I haven't really explored it much, so I can't say much about it.
OK now ZZ-C family!!
ZZ-C (OCLS->PLL). Lots of good cases worth learning here; but it's a lot of algs, and a lot of the time CT or HW is better because the TSLE or WSLC alg is shorter.
ZZ-CT (TSLE->TTLL). Swag variant. Algs are currently being developed.
ZZ-HW (WSLC->WDLL). Swag variant. Algs are highly undeveloped, as the variant was very recently rediscovered by me. I am currently developing the algs (which is why the D is in WDLL), and they are very promising. Check out my ZZ sheet to see the WIP WSLC and WDLL algs.
Now ZZ-D (CPLS->2GLL). I don't have much to say about it. it's a solid variant. Good for OH. I personally don't like CPLS recog, but that's just a me problem.
I don't know much about other variants that haven't been explored much.
I personally plan to do ZZ-C CT HW option select.