When do I change from 2-Look to Full-PLL? And how do I recognize it?

[CubeCubeCube]

Hello
I am a 30-40 sec. CFOP solver and I'm using F2L, 2 Look OLL and 2 Look PLL. So I have basically two questions?
1) How do I avoid doing tons of cube rotations to recognize the 2-look PLL cases?
2) When should I try to change to Full PLL? (And shall I directly lern 2SR?)

I used the search function and couldn't find any similar threads, if you can, please link it (And if this is the wrong Subforum inform me, too please.)

Greetings from Germany

 

[sqAree]

Hey! Welcome to the forum!

1) First of all you can do U/U'/U2 moves instead of rotations, as the PLL case does not depend on the first two layers. That's already faster than rotations. It's also possible to recognize the case just by looking at two sides, someone will probably link a tutorial here soon. For 2-look PLL it's even easier because there are fewer cases.

2) Go ahead immediately, as a 30-40 seconds solver you will benefit a lot from full PLL. It's basically the easiest possible way to improve at this stage (except just practice). The sooner you learn the algs, the sooner you will be able to execute them fast.

I'm not sure about 2SR, it's recommended by many people but I feel like it's not really important until becoming sub10 or similar as it's very fast to take a look at 3 sides at once almost all the time.

Have you been to a competition yet? If so, who are you (I'm from Germany too.)?

 

[newtonbase]

Start now. 2SR is worth the effort though, as with everything new, it will slow you down to start with. If you think it's too much then start learning the ones you recognise already. Don't be afraid of g perms.

 

[CubeCubeCube]

Hey! Welcome to the forum!

Thanks

1) First of all you can do U/U'/U2 moves instead of rotations, as the PLL case does not depend on the first two layers. That's already faster than rotations. It's also possible to recognize the case just by looking at two sides, someone will probably link a tutorial here soon. For 2-look PLL it's even easier because there are fewer cases.

I would enjoy such a tutorial :3

2) Go ahead immediately, as a 30-40 seconds solver you will benefit a lot from full PLL. It's basically the easiest possible way to improve at this stage (except just practice). The sooner you learn the algs, the sooner you will be able to execute them fast.

Ok but atm I'm searching for a correct edge/corner, look for the neighbours and then I know which case it is. How do i recognize it without looking around?

Have you been to a competition yet? If so, who are you (I'm from Germany too.)?

No, but if there will be one near to my home I will try to get there

Start now. 2SR is worth the effort though, as with everything new, it will slow you down to start with. If you think it's too much then start learning the ones you recognise already. Don't be afraid of g perms.

Ok so I will go for Full-PLL asap but I guess that it would me too much if I try to learn 2SR parallel to the algs?
I would really appreciate a good video tutorial you can recommend (there are a lot of excels and PDFs but learning from somebody is easier than learning from reading).

 

[Draranor]

Honestly, my advice would be to get better at f2l first. That's usually the biggest area people can improve; as it's one of the most important steps that typically takes the longest. Also, if you can build up good enough look-ahead and f2l skills, it's possible to be around an 11 second solver with 4LLL. Like myself, for example, I average around 10-11 seconds without knowing full oll and pll.

 

[CubeCubeCube]

Honestly, my advice would be to get better at f2l first. That's usually the biggest area people can improve; as it's one of the most important steps that typically takes the longest. Also, if you can build up good enough look-ahead and f2l skills, it's possible to be around an 11 second solver with 4LLL. Like myself, for example, I average around 10-11 seconds without knowing full oll and pll.

That's a quite good idea though. When I do F2L I have a lot of trouble with recognizing which main case I have to build (escpecially when only the corner piece is on the top layer I do U turns and then undo them and so on). Any tips on that?
Well, 2-look PLL is giving me an advantage of about 5 seconds, so why shouldn't the next step should be like that as well (as it's reducing my solve by one alg and one recognition).

 

[sqAree]

My opinion:

You get better at F2L every single solve you do, no matter if timed, untimed, just practice or official ones. It's a big area to improve, but you will do it anyway.
However, you can only train your full PLL (algs, execution, fingertricks, recognition, AUFing) after having learned the algs and will do so by using them, thus it's more beneficial to learn PLL now instead of only focussing on F2L.
If that makes sense.

 

[CubeCubeCube]

My opinion:

You get better at F2L every single solve you do, no matter if timed, untimed, just practice or official ones. It's a big area to improve, but you will do it anyway.
However, you can only train your full PLL (algs, execution, fingertricks, recognition, AUFing) after having learned the algs and will do so by using them, thus it's more beneficial to learn PLL now instead of only focussing on F2L.
If that makes sense.

To me it makes sence c:
But as we're speaking of F2L...how do I find the first F2L pair? (And I mean the first decent one, not that you need an alg for )

 

[pglewis]

2-look PLL is giving me an advantage of about 5 seconds, so why shouldn't the next step should be like that as well

PLLs are generally a little longer than OLLs, so a tiny bit more benefit to 1 looking. Probably the bigger difference is that the edge OLL step in 2-look OLL is limited to only a couple cases (fast recognition) and they're quick to execute. One looking OLL is obviously faster than 2 looking but I don't think it's quite the improvement as moving to one-look PLL.

You get better at F2L every single solve you do, no matter if timed, untimed, just practice or official ones. It's a big area to improve, but you will do it anyway.
However, you can only train your full PLL (algs, execution, fingertricks, recognition, AUFing) after having learned the algs and will do so by using them, thus it's more beneficial to learn PLL now instead of only focussing on F2L.

Completely agree. I can't even call myself sub 30 yet, but I'm about half way through OLL, just slowly picking up a group of cases at a time and working on them until they're comfortable enough to use in a timed solve... then I pick up some more. F2L is still going to be where most of my gains come from, but recognition and recall for OLL/PLL cases take a while to embed. Specific OLL cases don't turn up with the same frequency as PLLs so it takes a little more practice to get them down IME. By the time my lookahead has developed to the point where I've eliminated most pauses in my solves I should already be comfortably 2-looking the last layer, worst case.

how do I find the first F2L pair?

Practice, practice, practice. Try doing drills where you attempt to spot the first pair during inspection, or try tracking a pair as you solve the cross. Pay particular attention to your lookahead between the stages of your solve, not just during F2L, so that you get used to looking for your first pair as you are finishing up the cross. I'm still not very good at it, but good old fashioned repetition has improved things a lot over time.

 

[CubeCubeCube]

PLLs are generally a little longer than OLLs, so a tiny bit more benefit to 1 looking. Probably the bigger difference is that the edge OLL step in 2-look OLL is limited to only a couple cases (fast recognition) and they're quick to execute. One looking OLL is obviously faster than 2 looking but I don't think it's quite the improvement as moving to one-look PLL.



Completely agree. I can't even call myself sub 30 yet, but I'm about half way through OLL, just slowly picking up a group of cases at a time and working on them until they're comfortable enough to use in a timed solve... then I pick up some more. F2L is still going to be where most of my gains come from, but recognition and recall for OLL/PLL cases take a while to embed. Specific OLL cases don't turn up with the same frequency as PLLs so it takes a little more practice to get them down IME. By the time my lookahead has developed to the point where I've eliminated most pauses in my solves I should already be comfortably 2-looking the last layer, worst case.



Practice, practice, practice. Try doing drills where you attempt to spot the first pair during inspection, or try tracking a pair as you solve the cross. Pay particular attention to your lookahead between the stages of your solve, not just during F2L, so that you get used to looking for your first pair as you are finishing up the cross. I'm still not very good at it, but good old fashioned repetition has improved things a lot over time.

Well, atm I'm trying to solve F2L pairs while looking for the next one (a long way to go, but I already got benefits from it). The thing with the cross is kinda very hard to me because I'm already struggling with planing the whole cross.


By the way: Thanks to all of you for the quick and amazing help. Compared to gaming communities this feels like heaven ^—^

 

[sqAree]

Well, atm I'm trying to solve F2L pairs while looking for the next one (a long way to go, but I already got benefits from it). The thing with the cross is kinda very hard to me because I'm already struggling with planing the whole cross.


By the way: Thanks to all of you for the quick and amazing help. Compared to gaming communities this feels like heaven ^—^

Hey, if it helps you: I'm at around 15 seconds and struggle to plan the whole cross too. xD In theory I should force myself to take as much inspection time as I need to and work on it, but I'm lazy and still improving other things.
If you don't solve your cross on bottom, you should change, it helps a bit to find pieces. But chances are you're already doing it.

 

[CubeCubeCube]

Hey, if it helps you: I'm at around 15 seconds and struggle to plan the whole cross too. xD In theory I should force myself to take as much inspection time as I need to and work on it, but I'm lazy and still improving other things.
If you don't solve your cross on bottom, you should change, it helps a bit to find pieces. But chances are you're already doing it.

I never solved the cross on the top

 

[pglewis]

Oh, and on cube rotations/2SR: it's pretty quick to determine the corner permutation (CP) in a quick glance at the 4 visible corners. That alone won't give you full 2 sided recog but it has been an immediate help to me because often it will give you enough information to know your case (eg, if you know it's an adjacent CP case and don't see headlights, you'll know which of the other two sides has headlights or a 3-bar).

http://sarah.cubing.net/3x3x3/pll-recognition-guide#section/cp-recognition

 

[CornerCutter]

Though many people have said it already, you should learn full PLL now. And when your done with that you should move right on to full OLL. Good luck.

 

[CubeCubeCube]

Though many people have said it already, you should learn full PLL now. And when your done with that you should move right on to full OLL. Good luck.

Thanks.

 

[Dom]

Full PLL now and full OLL after you are sub 20. Even JRCuber doesn't do full OLL.

 

[Luke8]

I would say to start(the keyword is start) full PLL after you average under 30 seconds, for now just practice f2l. F2L is the most important stage in CFOP method, you can never practice too much. Even top notch cubers such as Feliks Zemdegs, Mats Valks, Kevin Hays, Cornelius Deickman, and Collin Burns can improve their F2L.
Note that I don't know if all of the listed cubers use CFOP, I am just saying that you can always improve your F2L

 

[CubeCubeCube]

Full PLL now and full OLL after you are sub 20. Even JRCuber doesn't do full OLL.

Sounds good

I would say to start(the keyword is start) full PLL after you average under 30 seconds, for now just practice f2l. F2L is the most important stage in CFOP method, you can never practice too much. Even top notch cubers such as Feliks Zemdegs, Mats Valks, Kevin Hays, Cornelius Deickman, and Collin Burns can improve their F2L.
Note that I don't know if all of the listed cubers use CFOP, I am just saying that you can always improve your F2L

I can improve my finger tricks, my algs, my recognition, my lookahead etc. The point is what is worth focussing on so I gain most from. Furthermore as it was already said ones F2L improves with every solve passively.

 

[CornerCutter]

Full PLL now and full OLL after you are sub 20. Even JRCuber doesn't do full OLL.

I would say to start(the keyword is start) full PLL after you average under 30 seconds, for now just practice f2l. F2L is the most important stage in CFOP method, you can never practice too much. Even top notch cubers such as Feliks Zemdegs, Mats Valks, Kevin Hays, Cornelius Deickman, and Collin Burns can improve their F2L.
Note that I don't know if all of the listed cubers use CFOP, I am just saying that you can always improve your F2L

Sounds good

I can improve my finger tricks, my algs, my recognition, my lookahead etc. The point is what is worth focussing on so I gain most from. Furthermore as it was already said ones F2L improves with every solve passively.

I would have to disagree. By learning full PLL and even starting to learn full OLL now, will improve not only your times but your recognition as well. So by the time you are 20sec you can recognize and execute the algs quickly.

 

[Dom]

I would have to disagree. By learning full PLL and even starting to learn full OLL now, will improve not only your times but your recognition as well. So by the time you are 20sec you can recognize and execute the algs quickly.

The reason i would not worry too much about full OLL right now is because F2L insertion is usually everyone's weak point. If i had put more focus on F2L in my early months, i would probably average sub 20 by now.
My recommendation of the order in which you should learn stuff:
Full PLL
Common OLL cases
half of the OLL Cases
advanced F2L insertion from any angle
become sub 20
Full OLL
Learn to be color neutral
Common ZBLL cases
Full ZBLL