[ER] Alexander Lau - 7.37 3x3x3 avg

It's funny how this thread went from the average itself to a debate about CFOP vs roux. I use cfop and have tried both methods but I have to say that although I can do the blocks decently fast, they don't flow very well for me.
 
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Just wrote reconstructions for two solves on my phone but for the others I'll have to think a bit more.
7.78
scramble: D' B2 U2 R2 B2 U2 L2 F2 D2 F' R2 F R2 U B' D' R U' B2 L
yRu'R'u'U'r'U2r'F (9/9)
r'U'RU2RU'R'U'RUMU2M'rUR' (16/25)
Ul'U'L'URU'LU (9/34)
x'U'MUM'U2M'U2M' (8/42)

6.87
scramble: B2 R U2 B2 F2 L' B2 R U2 F2 L' D F' D B U R' B2 U' L' R2

x'zR'U'MFU'(RM)B' (8/8)
M'UR2U2r'U'r (7/15)
U2l'U'L'URU'LU (9/24)
x'U2M'UM'U2M'UM'U2M'U2M'U'M2U'M2U2 (17/41)

It's interesting to note that although the LSE in the second solve is rather long, I did no M moves so it was really fast to execute.
 
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I disagree, I think the tradeoff is done differently. CFOP has different periods of restriction, many of which are superior to Roux. As fast as Alex is at <MU>, TPS simply doesn't compare to CFOP's move restrictions <RUF> for example. CFOP is less efficient (assuming a high level Roux solver), but also less complex/adlib. CFOP solves are so similar that there is practically no thinking time. This allows much higher TPS than Roux.

In most cases I would rather do 8 moves of <M,U> in 1 second than 11 moves of <R, U, F> in 1 second, which I think is the context we should talk about this comparison in. Firstly less moves generally means less opportunities for major or minor mistakes in turn accuracy, secondly <M, U> stance is generally 0 regrips whereas plenty of <R, U, F> algorithms tend to have 1 or more full or semi-regrips. Imo economy of movement is a plus for several reasons and that's harder to achieve with turns around a vertex like <R, U, F>.

Other restrictions I forgot to mention are things like CFOPs reliance on maintaining D layer edge positions - I think some 2x2 CLLs are good examples of how alg design changes, though that's not a direct comparison. One can ignore or bypass ending every f2l alg with correcting a D layer edge but it really ups the complexity and you generally don't want to do it to maintain speed.

The way I tend to envisage it is that everything you do in CFOP prior to the LL is always done with the intention of preserving the unsolved-ness of the U layer in combination with the solved-ness of the D layer edges... This creates certain types of restrictions as a trade for simpler lookahead, in turn creating simpler solutions. In contrast, until CmLL, Roux solutions are done in respect to preserving the FB (which is kept in your non-dominant hand anyway) and whatever you've currently built of the SB.


Edit: Oh yeah, basically didn't respond to your point, sorry. Although I respect your point about it being done differently (TPS rather than efficiency, simplicity > complexity), I think the ceiling argument still applies - the room for improvement in f2l basically comes from pair selection which in human application will probably never shave off more than one pairs worth of moves (and this is with a lot of experience and lookahead) from the average f2l. I remember a long time ago Breandan spent a good while working a very restricted approach with lots of esoteric f2l algorithms but abandoned it in favour of just 'better standard solutions'. Basically I'm trying to say that CFOPs approach reaches a physical tps/reaction time limit at around consistently 9-10tps and to increase efficiency from that point is very difficult simply due to method design...

That being said I wouldn't be surprised if Feliks can now sub-2 every possible LL, I don't keep up with stuff that much right now.

Expand on this please, I think you are overstating CN's advantage. You don't need colour neutrality to inspect cross+1. Also inspection time is far more influential on Roux than CFOP.

The parts I didn't quote I don't necessarily have anything to say about, but you make some assumptions/broad statementd that you imply are fact. I'm not sure this method advantage is nearly as clear as you think

I actually don't think I've stated CN's advantages enough, my point isn't about how CN helps you see further, but how CN gives you options, and options are power. Without actually doing any computation or hard research for numbers, being CN basically gives 6 opportunities for a random cross rather than 1, massively lowering variance not only in number of times you receive terrible cases, but in several other respects when we actually count what we're looking for in inspection. First pair is also incredibly important too, along with ergonomics, and distance of lookahead (the difference between seeing the corner of the second pair and not seeing it is pretty huge). Overall 'start quality' is much higher with CN when you can make a choice between several 5-6 move crosses with different options for FP. For loose analogies (but ones I believe you know) it's sort of like getting last pick every time in League of Legends, if you had no preference for role or champion, or if you got one of the late positions every time on a poker table.

Oops, just re-read what I said about inspection time, I think it's pretty clear Roux requires it more than CFOP! More I just meant CFOP with proper use of inspection is very very different to CFOP without, and I wanted to give the idea that this variance is why CN makes such a difference.

You are probably right about how the advantages are less clear-cut than I claim, but I really wanted to write a mini-essay (polemic?) highlighting a few factors I'm not sure have been discussed. Regardless I'll happily defend/debate the overall idea that Roux lies at a better position on the speed-efficiency trade-off curve than CFOP does.
 
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I'm not sure I whether I think roux is faster or CFOP is faster. I'd just like to remind the people who think CFOP will die out, that it is still better for big cubes (at least right now). Feliks would probably have broken fewer WRs if he were a roux user.

6.87
scramble: B2 R U2 B2 F2 L' B2 R U2 F2 L' D F' D B U R' B2 U' L' R2

x'zR'U'MFU'(RM)B' (8/8)
M'UR2U2r'U'r (7/15)
U2l'U'L'URU'LU (9/24)
x'U2M'UM'U2M'UM'U2M'U2M'U'M2U'M2U2 (17/41)

Was the first square of this second block intentional or was is just luck? I don't think there is any way I would have seen it, but knowing you...
 
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You get PLL/OLL skips in CFOP which shave off a lot of time and so many parts of the solve can be drilled to perfection such as algs in F2L and LL.
 
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FEWER!!!!!


If a noun is directly quantifiable (you can say n nouns), use FEWER not LESS.
If a noun is not directly quantifiable (you cannot say n nouns), use LESS not FEWER.

Anyway, you get PLL/OLL skips in CFOP which shave off a lot of time and so many parts of the solve can be drilled to perfection such as algs in F2L and LL.

1) CMLL Skips happen, and then sometimes, I have had it happen once, where everything after CMLL is solved
2) Algs < Intuitiveness, imho, don't you wonder why many people learn intuitive F2L?

Also Alex's LSE is insane for being intuitive, and in comparison to Faz's LL, its faster (just a guess, I read Faz has a sub-3 LL while Alex posted a sub-2 LSE avg a while ago.
 
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Anyway, you get PLL/OLL skips in CFOP which shave off a lot of time and so many parts of the solve can be drilled to perfection such as algs in F2L and LL.
Are OLL skips really that good? I agree that forced ones are great, but when I'm not expecting them they can really distract me, and I have a huge pause before I even start recognising PLL.
CMLL skips also happen.
Can you not drill CMLLs?
F2B's efficiency sort of makes up for the fact that you can't spam TPS quite so much. But it's rotationless and easy to fingertrick; neither of those things can be said (to the same extent, at least) as Roux.

(I'm not trying to argue here, I'm just trying to make a point that for anything you say for either method, there's going to be some counterargument. Why do half of Alex's ER threads turn into some debate?)
 
Are OLL skips really that good? I agree that forced ones are great, but when I'm not expecting them they can really distract me, and I have a huge pause before I even start recognising PLL.

I almost always recognise when I'm gonna get an OLL skip, so I can go straight to PLL, while PLL skips tend to catch me off guard.
 
(I'm not trying to argue here, I'm just trying to make a point that for anything you say for either method, there's going to be some counterargument. Why do half of Alex's ER threads turn into some debate?)

Because someone always brings up the "oh look how good Roux is" point and it goes on from there.
 
I almost always recognise when I'm gonna get an OLL skip, so I can go straight to PLL, while PLL skips tend to catch me off guard.
For me, PLL skips are easier to deal with because you just need to AUF afterwards - the pause isn't as big. They're also more common, especially since I use 2-look sometimes (so more COLL/ZBLL opportunities), so I expect them quite often. But you're right, it does depend on the person.
 
It's interesting to note that although the LSE in the second solve is rather long, I did no M moves so it was really fast to execute.

Did you know this going into it, or did it just happen to be this way?
also, same CMLL
 
I believe I did. I mean I get lots of cases where I have a choice to do M or M' i think, perhaps doing M wouldve saved moves (by changing EP) but I just decided to turn fast

Congrats on the great time! Sad that there isn't a video :(
 
Just wrote reconstructions for two solves on my phone but for the others I'll have to think a bit more.
7.78
scramble: D' B2 U2 R2 B2 U2 L2 F2 D2 F' R2 F R2 U B' D' R U' B2 L
yRu'R'u'U'r'U2r'F (9/9)
r'U'RU2RU'R'U'RUMU2M'rUR' (16/25)
Ul'U'L'URU'LU (9/34)
x'U'MUM'U2M'U2M' (8/42)

6.87
scramble: B2 R U2 B2 F2 L' B2 R U2 F2 L' D F' D B U R' B2 U' L' R2

x'zR'U'MFU'(RM)B' (8/8)
M'UR2U2r'U'r (7/15)
U2l'U'L'URU'LU (9/24)
x'U2M'UM'U2M'UM'U2M'U2M'U'M2U'M2U2 (17/41)

It's interesting to note that although the LSE in the second solve is rather long, I did no M moves so it was really fast to execute.

41/42 STM in a speed solve is remarkable.

EDIT: Those wide turns during CMLL to set up better EO... I really gotta learn that.
 
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