• Welcome to the Speedsolving.com, home of the web's largest puzzle community!
    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access to join discussions and access our other features.

    Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community of 30,000+ people from around the world today!

    If you are already a member, simply login to hide this message and begin participating in the community!

All-Round Rankings (KinchRanks)

kinch2002

Premium Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
2,504
Likes
11
Location
Guildford! UK!
WCA
2009SHEP01
YouTube
kinch2002
Thread starter #1
I devised KinchRanks in May 2015 as a new system to rank all-round ability. Read all about it in the post below, or go to the website where I'm hosting the info and rankings,

KINCHRANKS WEBSITE

Homepage content:

1. For each event, you get a score of WR/PB x 100 (this will be in the range 0-100)
2. The average across your 18 scores is the final KinchRank score.

The "events" used are:
Averages for 3x3x3, 4x4x4, 5x5x5, 2x2x2, OH, Feet, Megaminx, Pyraminx, Square-1, Clock, Skewb, 6x6x6, 7x7x7.
Singles for 4bld, 5bld, Multibld
Averages or Singles for 3bld and FM (whichever is best for you)

If you haven't done the event then of course you get 0 for that event.
For multibld, your result is adjusted to a single number Points + ProportionofHourLeft. At the time of writing, Marcin Kowalkcyk has a score of 41/41 54:14, which equates to 41.0961. Someone with e.g. 11 points in 45:00 would get (11+0.25)/41.0961 = 0.2737. This calculation ensures that more points always equals a better score, no matter the time spent. Less time spent still gives a better score.
- Higher scores are of course better.
- If you're WR holder, you'd get a score of 100 for that event (WR/WR x 100)
- No matter how slow you are, you will always get some score
- Being double the WR gets you 50 for an event. Same in every event. Treble the WR would be 33.3 points.
- The maximum theoretical final score is 100, although you'd require WR in every event for that.
- For regional rankings, e.g. KinchRanks UK, the regional records are used as the benchmarks instead of the WR (basic calculation of NR/PB x 100).
- For country rankings, the NRs are used instead of PBs (basic calculation of WR/NR x 100).
For a while I had been dissatisfied by the "Sum of Ranks" Single and Average calculation used to show an all-round ability. That's not to say it's a bad system, but I had in my mind that there were some underlying issues with it when trying to assess all-round ability.

After a few other attempts to eliminate the issues I had perceived, I think KinchRanks has finally hit the nail on the head.

Here are some things that I see as drawbacks of the current Sum of Ranks system:
1. There are 2 lists (single and average).
2. Not competing in an event can "kill" your ranking, even if you're amazing at everything else (e.g. Feliks not doing feet, Vincent not doing 7x7x7 for ages).
3. Massive event biases. For example, you have to be really good at 3x3 to get high up. Bigbld barely matters in the slightest. This is due to the depth of events and the participation rates.
4. Personal improvement doesn't always equate to any gains - indeed if you're the World Record holder then there's absolutely no chance of you gaining anything from improvement!

I believe my system has removed all 4 of these perceived issues, as explained:
1. There is one list, that uses a combination of averages and singles as appropriate.
2. No result in an event just means you don't gain any points for it, rather that essentially losing an unlimited number of points.
3. All events have a score range 0 to 100 and are weighted equally in the final result. Your scores do not rely on how good anyone else is (apart from the WR that is the benchmark)
4. Every PB (in average or single as appropriate) gives you points!
What is the reasoning behind the use of averages and/or singles?
Averages are generally a better indicator of ability than singles, so those are used where available. For 3bld and FM, the average rankings are not yet established enough, so single ranks are allowed to be used instead if advantageous for a person. FM may be restricted to averages only in the future if the rankings reach a good point to do that.

Doesn't gaining a second while near the WR gain you a lot more score than gaining a second while far away from it?
This is a good thing, as a second is much harder to cut off when near the WR!

Is it fair that everyone loses score when a new WR is set?
Yes I believe it is. The rankings are supposed to be equal across events, and to do that we must use benchmarks that are as equal in ability as each other. Think of a WR as a recalibration of the system. Over time, it should converge towards an even more equal system than it is currently!

Is FM a little easier to get a good score in?
Yes I believe it is slightly. This is due to the completely different nature of the event compared to the others. The effect is not thought to be big enough to warrant implementing an exception.

Are 2x2 and other short events a little harder to get a good score in?
Yes I think short events are generally a little harder to get good scores because the WR is likely to be a lucky average. Again, the effect is not thought to be a big one

Why are all the Multibld scores so low?!
Up your game everyone! If Maskow can managed 41 cubes, I'm sure if people put time into it like they do with other events, they could get good scores. Being able to 2/2 just means you've learnt 3bld and have some extra locations. Practising 3bld doesn't count as practising Multibld, so I'm not concerned that 2/2 barely gets you anything :)

Why am I ranked much lower than I was in Sum of Ranks?
The most likely cause is that you practised events that have a lot of depth to them a lot (3x3, 2x2 being the biggest culprits). You used to be higher because it's hard to get a low world ranking in those events, and many people were so far behind you in the rankings for them that their other events couldn't make up for it.

Why am I ranked much higher than I was in Sum of Ranks?
There are 3 main causes for this.
Firstly, you are missing some events completely, and were massively penalised for it before with huge ranking scores.
Secondly, you are relatively good at events without much depth to them (bigbld and feet the biggest culprits). You didn't gain much on anyone for your skill before, because others could just avoid them completely without a big penalty. Now you get a score for those events, and others get 0.
Thirdly, that pesky bad ranking in 3x3 no longer drags you down. Many people are very good at 3x3 but have a terrible world ranking because of the depth of the event.
 
Last edited:

Kit Clement

Premium Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
1,238
Likes
343
Location
Portland, OR
WCA
2008CLEM01
YouTube
KitClement
#4
I'm not sure that I like completely ignoring singles -- it might be interesting to have a system where events with both single and average have their WR/PB (or PB/WR for MBLD) score computed, and then are given some appropriate weight (25% single, 75% average) that still reflects the value in averages. It's a bit arbitrary, but I do feel like it's better than throwing away this information about the potential for getting very fast solves.

Regardless -- I've always been a fan of the proportional ranks system, but this is an even better improvement on that.

Nice idea. It might be cool to do this for a single competition, to get the MVP of that particular comp.
Now this is something I'd really like to try in the future.
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2006
Messages
1,743
Likes
1
Location
Uberlandia, MG - Brazil
WCA
2007GUIM01
YouTube
PedroSG
#7
I'm not sure that I like completely ignoring singles -- it might be interesting to have a system where events with both single and average have their WR/PB (or PB/WR for MBLD) score computed, and then are given some appropriate weight (25% single, 75% average) that still reflects the value in averages. It's a bit arbitrary, but I do feel like it's better than throwing away this information about the potential for getting very fast solves.

Regardless -- I've always been a fan of the proportional ranks system, but this is an even better improvement on that.



Now this is something I'd really like to try in the future.
From what I understood, singles are included for the bld and FM events. If you check his table, you see for example that Feliks' result for 333bf is 0.526, which is 21.17 / 40.28.
 
Last edited:

Kit Clement

Premium Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
1,238
Likes
343
Location
Portland, OR
WCA
2008CLEM01
YouTube
KitClement
#8
For fun -- this is an individual competition result from Peach State using this ranking system. Events with multiple rounds were based solely on round 1.

Name

333

444

222

333bf

333oh

333fm

clock

skewb

666

777

333mbf

SUM

Daniel Wannamaker

0.89395441

1

0.84591195

0

0.802112029

0.568627451

0.790769231

0.7695962

0

1

0

6.670971271

Callum Hales-Jepp

0.7187251

0.72423129

0.635933806

1

0.863142292

0.852941176

0.779575329

0.602230483

0

0

0

6.176779476

Kit Clement

0.592252134

0.5387714

0.512380952

0.304461942

0.606807919

0.90625

1

1

0

0

0

5.460924348

Ben Cofield

0.630769231

0.726056611

0.551229508

0.438225829

0.667303285

0

0

0

0.971559412

0

1

4.985143876

Jacob Ambrose

0.571609632

0.564686369

0.433870968

0

0.499856938

1

0

0.46618705

0.807103956

0.620778833

0

4.964093748

Anthony Brooks

1

0.556877323

1

0.480147172

0.95360262

0

0

0

0

0

0

3.990627115

Sydney Weaver

0.620784584

0.745718837

0.631455399

0.554140127

0.516711032

0

0.402610966

0.462526767

0

0

0

3.933947712

Thomas Kohann

0.794014085

0.622920825

0.711640212

0

0.765892153

0

0

0.987804878

0

0

0

3.882272152

Clark Cheng

0.709119497

0.658287924

0

0

1

0

0

0

0.847632265

0.658281254

0

3.87332094

David Ludwig

0.794713656

0.843278541

0.62412993

0

0.863568957

0

0

0.318897638

0

0

0

3.444588722

Jonas Ventresca

0.560945274

0.503157329

0.435275081

0

0.378794449

0

0

0.55008489

0.7413197

0

0

3.169576722

Jared Stinson

0.542719615

0.576242499

0.567510549

0

0.402441834

0

0

0.488319518

0

0

0

2.577234014

Chris Tran

0.578205128

0.674774775

0

0

0.443738887

0.604166667

0

0

0

0

0

2.300885457

Chris Foster

0.616963064

0.653920028

0

0

0.66249526

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.933378352

Phillip Lane

0.37962963

0

0.553497942

0

0

0.467741935

0

0.411951685

0

0

0

1.812821192

Ramone Jackson

0.601333333

0.380666802

0.366984993

0

0.441719343

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.790704471

Aussie Greene

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

1

0.637747803

0

1.637747803

James LaChance

0.541091782

0.4372446

0.539078156

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.517414538

Austin Pitchford

0.482869379

0.445780264

0

0

0

0

0

0.554319932

0

0

0

1.482969575

Parker Oxford

0.466149871

0

0.406959153

0

0

0

0

0.35390497

0

0

0

1.227013994

Aarya Kapani

0.399291722

0

0.388728324

0

0

0

0

0.436952124

0

0

0

1.22497217

Nathan Graves

0.48730416

0

0.3904209

0

0

0

0

0.332819723

0

0

0

1.210544782

Dylan Miller

0.556446638

0

0.64354067

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.199987308

Raymond Goslow

0.680754717

0

0.504690432

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.185445149

Chaewon Min

0.446534653

0.58745098

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.033985634

Tristan Rappon

0.434280212

0

0.284957627

0

0

0

0

0.279430789

0

0

0

0.998668628

Robbie Inglett

0.272507553

0

0.332920792

0

0

0

0

0.361405466

0

0

0

0.966833811

Caleb Saiyasak

0.401245552

0

0.282860147

0

0

0

0

0.214782897

0

0

0

0.898888596

Ethan Botelho

0.278653074

0

0.394428152

0

0

0

0

0.201743462

0

0

0

0.874824688

Michael Lu

0.473739496

0

0.346649485

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.82038898

Seth Bailey

0.416628176

0

0.321385902

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.738014078

Kendal Reid

0.437015504

0

0.27962578

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.716641284

Calvin Bernardo

0.302481556

0

0.313885648

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.616367204

Eric Vande Linde

0.354142128

0

0.253057385

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.607199513

James Bobbitt

0.309859155

0

0.270896274

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.580755429

Brian Weinshenker

0.274581431

0

0.301907969

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.576489399

Noah Joiner

0.249446903

0

0.304298643

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.553745545

Eldridge Harris III

0.28293601

0

0.269809428

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.552745438

Jackson McNab

0

0

0.257170172

0

0

0

0

0.26910299

0

0

0

0.526273162

Jack Hayhurst

0.153453556

0

0.335830212

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.489283768

Jorge Luis Avila

0.255596486

0

0.214171975

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.469768461

Chris Krueger

0.4500998

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.4500998

Reese McGee

0.2217851

0

0.223980017

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.445765116

Ty Fazenbaker

0.234895833

0

0.184246575

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.419142409

Tejas Manem

0.327285922

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.327285922

Neil Verma

0.127870712

0

0.163030303

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.290901015

Tanner Corbett

0.136604574

0

0.066028473

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.202633047

Agastya Gudipati

0.120266667

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.120266667

Jacob Freed

0

0

0.113790186

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.113790186

Yonatan Nigussie

0

0

0.107000796

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.107000796

Ved Rao

0.084551931

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.084551931


From what I understood, singles are included for the bld and FM events. If you check his table, you see for example that Feliks' result for 333bf is 0.526, which is 21.17 / 40.28.
I meant that within any event with both average and single rankings (like 3x3x3) it would be nice to have some sort of weighted average of the two WR/PB scores.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
1,361
Likes
45
Location
Tampere, Finland
WCA
2012LEHT01
#11
Me too :). Even if it is just the opposite of what Matthew says/wants, one list!

I just summed up BLD and finds that Grzegorz is the best, followed by Oliver and Marcell.
(And you are in 31:th place)
Yeah I thought Grzegorz and Ollie would be 1 & 2 :D

Maskow wins amazingly much at MBLD but doesn't really do bigBLD so...

EDIT: In a month I'll hopefully be much higher :D we have a comp coming with all events. Hopefully I can get sub-4 4bld sub-11 5bld and sup-15 points mbld
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 6, 2013
Messages
643
Likes
169
Location
House
WCA
2011WANN01
YouTube
DanPhan205
#15
For fun -- this is an individual competition result from Peach State using this ranking system.

Name

333

444

222

333bf

333oh

333fm

clock

skewb

666

777

333mbf

SUM

Daniel Wannamaker

0.89395441

1

0.84591195

0

0.802112029

0.568627451

0.790769231

0.7695962

0

0.807362602

0

6.478333873

Callum Hales-Jepp

0.7187251

0.72423129

0.635933806

1

0.863142292

0.852941176

0.779575329

0.602230483

0

0

0

6.176779476

Kit Clement

0.592252134

0.5387714

0.512380952

0.304461942

0.606807919

0.90625

1

1

0

0

0

5.460924348

Ben Cofield

0.630769231

0.726056611

0.551229508

0.438225829

0.667303285

0

0

0

0.971559412

0

1

4.985143876

Jacob Ambrose

0.571609632

0.564686369

0.433870968

0

0.499856938

1

0

0.46618705

0.807103956

0.501193614

0

4.844508529

Anthony Brooks

1

0.556877323

1

0.480147172

0.95360262

0

0

0

0

0

0

3.990627115

Sydney Weaver

0.620784584

0.745718837

0.631455399

0.554140127

0.516711032

0

0.402610966

0.462526767

0

0

0

3.933947712

Thomas Kohann

0.794014085

0.622920825

0.711640212

0

0.765892153

0

0

0.987804878

0

0

0

3.882272152

Clark Cheng

0.709119497

0.658287924

0

0

1

0

0

0

0.847632265

0.531471666

0

3.746511352

David Ludwig

0.794713656

0.843278541

0.62412993

0

0.863568957

0

0

0.318897638

0

0

0

3.444588722

Jonas Ventresca

0.560945274

0.503157329

0.435275081

0

0.378794449

0

0

0.55008489

0.7413197

0

0

3.169576722

Jared Stinson

0.542719615

0.576242499

0.567510549

0

0.402441834

0

0

0.488319518

0

0

0

2.577234014

Chris Tran

0.578205128

0.674774775

0

0

0.443738887

0.604166667

0

0

0

0

0

2.300885457

Chris Foster

0.616963064

0.653920028

0

0

0.66249526

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.933378352

Phillip Lane

0.37962963

0

0.553497942

0

0

0.467741935

0

0.411951685

0

0

0

1.812821192

Ramone Jackson

0.601333333

0.380666802

0.366984993

0

0.441719343

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.790704471

James LaChance

0.541091782

0.4372446

0.539078156

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.517414538

Aussie Greene

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

1

0.514893726

0

1.514893726

Austin Pitchford

0.482869379

0.445780264

0

0

0

0

0

0.554319932

0

0

0

1.482969575

Parker Oxford

0.466149871

0

0.406959153

0

0

0

0

0.35390497

0

0

0

1.227013994

Aarya Kapani

0.399291722

0

0.388728324

0

0

0

0

0.436952124

0

0

0

1.22497217

Nathan Graves

0.48730416

0

0.3904209

0

0

0

0

0.332819723

0

0

0

1.210544782

Dylan Miller

0.556446638

0

0.64354067

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.199987308

Raymond Goslow

0.680754717

0

0.504690432

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.185445149

Chaewon Min

0.446534653

0.58745098

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

1.033985634

Tristan Rappon

0.434280212

0

0.284957627

0

0

0

0

0.279430789

0

0

0

0.998668628

Robbie Inglett

0.272507553

0

0.332920792

0

0

0

0

0.361405466

0

0

0

0.966833811

Caleb Saiyasak

0.401245552

0

0.282860147

0

0

0

0

0.214782897

0

0

0

0.898888596

Ethan Botelho

0.278653074

0

0.394428152

0

0

0

0

0.201743462

0

0

0

0.874824688

Michael Lu

0.473739496

0

0.346649485

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.82038898

Seth Bailey

0.416628176

0

0.321385902

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.738014078

Kendal Reid

0.437015504

0

0.27962578

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.716641284

Calvin Bernardo

0.302481556

0

0.313885648

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.616367204

Eric Vande Linde

0.354142128

0

0.253057385

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.607199513

James Bobbitt

0.309859155

0

0.270896274

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.580755429

Brian Weinshenker

0.274581431

0

0.301907969

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.576489399

Noah Joiner

0.249446903

0

0.304298643

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.553745545

Eldridge Harris III

0.28293601

0

0.269809428

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.552745438

Jackson McNab

0

0

0.257170172

0

0

0

0

0.26910299

0

0

0

0.526273162

Jack Hayhurst

0.153453556

0

0.335830212

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.489283768

Jorge Luis Avila

0.255596486

0

0.214171975

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.469768461

Chris Krueger

0.4500998

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.4500998

Reese McGee

0.2217851

0

0.223980017

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.445765116

Ty Fazenbaker

0.234895833

0

0.184246575

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.419142409

Tejas Manem

0.327285922

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.327285922

Neil Verma

0.127870712

0

0.163030303

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.290901015

Tanner Corbett

0.136604574

0

0.066028473

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.202633047

Agastya Gudipati

0.120266667

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.120266667

Jacob Freed

0

0

0.113790186

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.113790186

Yonatan Nigussie

0

0

0.107000796

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.107000796

Ved Rao

0.084551931

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0

0.084551931

Wait, shouldn't my 7x7 be 1?
 

Tim Major

Platinum Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
5,356
Likes
15
Location
Melbourne, Australia
WCA
2010MAJO01
#19
3x3: 0.535
4x4: 0.468
5x5: 0.443
2x2: 0.478
3bld: 0.199
3oh: 0.539
fmc: 0.714
mega: 0.363
pyra: 0.684
sq1: 0.326
clock: 0.389
sk: 0.678
6x6: 0.350
7x7: 0
4bld: 0
5bld: 0
multi: 0

Total: 6.166

Nice effort Daniel, I really like sum of ranks related stats. It's funny how my results suggest my best events are FMC->Pyra->Skewb->OH->3x3, when regionally 3x3 is one of my worst events. I guess it suggests Oceania is strong at 3x3. These sorts of stats whilst flawed are really good for comparing regions.

My only suggestion would be to make the value used the top 1% result, instead of the WR result. I think the top 1% result is more indicative than the WR, as several events have WRs as outliers at the moment (OH, 5x5, multi). I can't do fancy enough excel stuff to try this, but would be grateful if someone else did.

Also personal request, top 100 for Oceanic "Danielranks"?
Data: https://www.worldcubeassociation.or...Id=_Oceania&eventId=&years=&separate=Separate
People: https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/misc/sum_of_ranks/?regionId=_Oceania&average=Average
 
Top