Should we remove at least one of the 3 big BLD events? (4x4, 5x5, multi BLD)

In short I think it is desirable that at least one of the following events would be removed:
- 4x4 BLD
- 5x5 BLD
- Multi BLD

This is an issue that has bothered me for a while now: Blindfolded solving is an impressive way to solve a Rubik's cube. Overall I do like it and like to do it. However there are many downsides to the events, I don't think all of them should be official anymore.

There are 3 main reasons that are build up on each other and a few other reasons for removing at least one of the events.

1. The big BLD events stand too far away from the original "solve a Rubik's cube" concept on which all of speedcubing is build. To me 4/5/multi BLD is exactly the same as 4x4 OH and 5x5 FMC would be: a side event of a side event. Or: a variant of a variant. Have a look at the chart in the attachment (or the new link) to see what I mean with this. We don't hold any other side events of side events except for BLD.

http://www.pic-upload.de/view-23833561/Chart.jpg.html
View attachment 4246

The problem I have with this is that especially multi-BLD, but also 4x4BLD and 5x5BLD barely have anything to do with speedcubing anymore. It is for the biggest part, just a memory sport. All other events we have don't require memorizing states of cubes, but are just 'fast-puzzling'. Why are we doing memory sports at a speedcubing competition? Don't misunderstand me, I think it is HIGHLY impressive to memorize 20 cubes BLD in an hour, but it does not have much to do with cubing anymore. If you can indeed memorize and solve 20 cubes in an hour, alternatively you could really try to make a career in memory sports!

2. Now the fact itself that we have a variant of a variant is not very good, but now think about it: we have 3 of them (not including 3x3 BLD). Why 3? It's not like we just have 4x4 OH, but also have 5x5 OH and let's say megaminx OH as well. This doesn't make much sense to me.

3. Also: the events are too much the same so they don't add anything to the skills that are required. Almost everyone who is good at 5x5 BLD is also good at 4x4 BLD, and the same goes for multi BLD. Yes BLD does add something to speedcubing, but why have 3 variants of this variant, which are not even much different? The memo technique you can use for all 3 events is just the same. The difference between 4x4 BLD and 5x5 BLD is for the biggest part just the amount of information you have to memorize.
Now yes, you could also argue 7x7 doesn't add anything either. On this I would partly agree. Yes 7x7 and 6x6 and 5x5 are very much the same, to be honest I wouldn't be bothered at all if 7x7 was removed as well. The difference though, is that 7x7 is just a variant of a 3x3 and not a variant of a variant (because that would be 7x7 FMC or OH for example).

Other reasons:
- the events take up a lot of time and complicate time-schedules heavily, especially when all 3 events are held. Mostly you can do your attempts whenever you want throughout the whole weekend, but this still requires a lot of organizing hassle. You have to find a judge, you have to talk to the organizer about the fact that you might have to change your group for other events. If you decide to NOT hold the events on the side, you are using up so much time on the main stage that it steals unreasonably much time of more popular events.

- the events are not very popular: now I don't have access to the database, but from experience I would say only a handfull of people actually compete in some of the 3 events (not to mention all 3 events) when they are held. It happens a lot that for example nobody even succeeds on a 5x5 BLD and the podium is empty...

- the events are too hard: this especially goes for 5x5 BLD. 3x3 is already quite hard, 4x4 is managable, but 5x5 is really difficult for some people.

- it is prone to possible cheating: it happens a lot that you can just do big BLD and multi all day long or even all weekend long. Now I know we all trust each other, but it is sometimes possible that competitor A does a WR on the first solve, which is filmed and put up on the internet and person B can still do the same scramble the next day, or at the end of the day. Do we really trust each other for that long? This does not seem very desirable... Yes you can organize it within a smaller time range, but then the burden on the organization grows again.

In short: 3 big BLD events are too much. Ideally I would like to see all of them go, but I understand a significant amount of people would not be happy with that. I think it's very reasonable and agreeable that at least one of these events would be removed. For those people who have fun at memorizing large quantities of information there would still be other events left in which they can use their skill. Now to which event should go: I don't really care much. Ideally Multi-BLD because that event requires the most memorizing and least amount of creativity in the way you solve it, with 5x5BLD you at least have 2 new types of pieces you have to learn how to solve, whereas multi-BLD is exactly 3x3 BLD times x.

I am interested in the opinion of the rest of the community and look forward to reading your answers. If you want to argue pro or con, please use logical reasoning and explain why you agree or disagree with my reasons, or your own well-elaborated reasons and don't start throwing in comments like: "we have to keep all events, because I think it is impressive" or "we should get rid of all events, because people who memorize that much info scare me" or "we should not remove 4x4 BLD, because I have the NR".

I would say keep all of them. I think memory sports are pretty amazing, and there's nothing wrong with cubing branching into that field. Especially because it's a combination of memory and dexterity that is extremely unique in the world.

DeeDubb said:

I would say keep all of them. I think memory sports are pretty amazing, and there's nothing wrong with cubing branching into that field. Especially because it's a combination of memory and dexterity that is extremely unique in the world.

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I think they are amazing as well. Do we really need all 3 events to present this skill? Do we really need memory sports to be this big in speedcubing?

Like I said in my original post: please use logical reasoning and explain why you have a certain opinion and why you agree or disagree with my reasons.

Erik said:

I think they are amazing as well. Do we really need all 3 events to present this skill? Do we really need memory sports to be this big in speedcubing?

Like I said in my original post: please use logical reasoning and explain why you have a certain opinion and why you agree or disagree with my reasons.

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I think the bigger the cubes get, the more it's about memorization ability, and less about actual finger speed. Much the same that the bigger cubes get for speed, it's more about ability to quickly reduce to a 3x3 and less about the 3x3 phase itself. In my opinion, 4BLD and 5BLD are progression from 3BLD, much the same that 4x4 and 5x5 are progression from the Rubik's Cube. I think MBLD is intriguing for a different reason, because it's doing the most you can in a set amount of time. This is very unique in speed cubing. So, yes, i see a place for all these events.

Also, you are asking for logical reasons about an issue that is rooted in personal preference. It's impossible to logically deduce something that people merely have opinions about, so maybe you should change your criteria to ask for cordial and intelligent discourse.

DeeDubb said:

I think the bigger the cubes get, the more it's about memorization ability, and less about actual finger speed. Much the same that the bigger cubes get for speed, it's more about ability to quickly reduce to a 3x3 and less about the 3x3 phase itself. In my opinion, 4BLD and 5BLD are progression from 3BLD, much the same that 4x4 and 5x5 are progression from the Rubik's Cube. I think MBLD is intriguing for a different reason, because it's doing the most you can in a set amount of time. This is very unique in speed cubing. So, yes, i see a place for all these events.

Also, you are asking for logical reasons about an issue that is rooted in personal preference. It's impossible to logically deduce something that people merely have opinions about, so maybe you should change your criteria to ask for cordial and intelligent discourse.

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So you are saying 5x5 is more impressive than 4x4 BLD? I agree on that as well why would we still need 4x4 BLD then?

Of course this is about personal preference, but it is also about what is good for the community. There are clear reasons for doing something beyond the "do you like the event" question, I hope you understand this. Things like issues for the organization of competitions, place of events in the organigramm and the equalness of events are clear logical arguments and have nothing to do with preference. If I wanted to know how popular these events are I could have simply asked someone who has access to the database.

Erik said:

So you are saying 5x5 is more impressive than 4x4 BLD? I agree on that as well why would we still need 4x4 BLD then?

Of course this is about personal preference, but it is also about what is good for the community. There are clear reasons for doing something beyond the "do you like the event" question, I hope you understand this. Things like issues for the organization of competitions, place of events in the organigramm and the equalness of events are clear logical arguments and have nothing to do with preference. If I wanted to know how popular these events are I could have simply asked someone who has access to the database.

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Ok, in that case, I'll step aside, because I don't know anything about the difficulties of organizing BLD events, or how equal they are.

Erik said:

the events are too much the same so they don't add anything to the skills that are required.

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I think it's a good argument to remove 5BLD at least.

Just some scattered thoughts on this (I've been expecting this thread for a while!)

4BLD:
- adds a new level of difficulty to normal 3BLD solving by introducing center solving. Memorizing a centers 'solution' requires a good degree of planning and track and trace, and during execution the ability to visualize, whereas a 3BLD is mostly linear in its memorization phase.
- adds further difficulty by testing one's capacity. And it is a good amount of information - the equivalent of a 2/3 cube multi which is within most peoples' abilities without a huge deal of practice.
- Execution times are decreasing all the time and to get records it is crucial to memorize and execute fast. It is gradually becoming a similar ball game to 3BLD. So to say that it is far from the 'speedcubing'
- It receives incredibly positive attention from the media.

5BLD:
- tests capacity, nerves and the ability to deal with a full range of piece types.
- it is a 'Mt Everest' type goal that a lot of people strive for. The number of people with successes in the database doesn't indicate a lack of popularity on it's own - a better statistic might be the number of people that have ever tried it.
- The issue with time constraints can be resolved by; introducing caps (i.e. one hour period for all 4BLD and 5BLD attempts); ensuring everyone contributes to the judging and scrambling processes so that the whole competition can run smoothly and on time so that all events can be held. Yeah, I understand there's a stress in UK comps to have all BLD but I personally like the one hour cap for for 4BLD and 5BLD

General points:
- nearly all the arguments here can be applied to 6x6x6, 7x7x7 and to some extent 5x5x5 too.
- I agree with your points on Multi

Ollie said:

- The issue with time constraints can be resolved by; introducing caps (i.e. one hour period for all 4BLD and 5BLD attempts); ensuring everyone contributes to the judging and scrambling processes so that the whole competition can run smoothly and on time so that all events can be held. Yeah, I understand there's a stress in UK comps to have all BLD but I personally like the 1 hour cap for for 4BLD and 5BLD

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in the comps that i've been at, sometimes 4BLD is run at the expense of the competitors lunchtime. With regards to issues with judge's etc, it's not very hard to find someone to scramble and in terms of holding up the card, a music stand usually suffices

I personally feel multiBLD should be removed because it's just 3BLD, but more of it. I don't find that it brings anything new to the table, and it takes a long time to have at a comp. (same argument can be used for bigcubes, 5BLD and possibly other events too) Also, I agree with the "side event of a side event" argument, it was one of the first things I thought of when I considered this.

Note: My arguments might be bad, or even horrible, but this is just my opinion.

Uh oh. Another "should we remove x event?" thread. inb4 more people come and repeat arguments that we have already discussed, adding absolutely nothing more to discuss…*cough* feet *cough*

I have absolutely no objections to keeping all of those events. I don't think removing any of them would be necessary at this moment.

I feel like the main question when we make these "should we remove x event" threads is "how far should we take it?" For example, when we discuss 3x3 WF: the thought of adding variants or "side events" (don't really agree with that name, but who cares, anyway) to challenge ourselves further is already well accepted with 3x3, i.e. no one is asking if we should remove OH, but how far should we take it? with feet? with elbows? while juggling?

Similarly, that is the question here. Well, we can solve 3x3s blindfolded. Why not do 4x4s? 5x5s? more?

For me, the question of how far we should take variations on events is answered by one question: is it within reason? Basically, this is what it all boils down do, doesn't it? Is it really reasonable for us to solve 3x3 with feet? Is it really reasonable to solve a 4x4 with a blindfold? For all of those, my answer would be yes. If you want to solve 3x3s with blindfolds, I think you should be able to solve 4x4s with blindfolds, too.

The question will pretty obviously pop up later of where it begins to NOT be reasonable. Really, the answer to the question should be pretty obvious when you ask it, in my opinion. For example, 5x5 FMC is… probably not very reasonable for (I think) pretty obvious reasons, though I have never done FMC anything, so I will admit that I am not really in the know-how here. However, clearly if 3x3 FMC is so difficult (well, not really that it's extremely difficult, more like it takes a while) and takes so long (an hour!), I doubt that anything beyond 4x4 FMC is well beyond reasonable.

However, if you wish to really discuss when a variation becomes unreasonable… I suppose it boils down to whether it's 1. physically possible to do very fast (to stick to the whole speedcubing aspect that you mentioned) (e.g. 7x7 OH? Probably not…) and 2. reasonable to do at competitions (after all, this is (sort of) the reason why Magic was removed) (e.g. 5x5 FMC again). When I talk about how it can be reasonable to do at competitions, I am referring to pretty much everything except for time, since I am more concerned about whether it's reasonable to physically do at a competition, as well as any other factors such as judging (again, magic) and anything else (e.g. doing 3x3 underwater at competition is stupid and unreasonable to do at any sort of venue). I will note here that for either of these points, IMO the closer the answer becomes no (for either of those points) for any given event, the more that popularity and demand must compensate.

If you are considering those two points for 4x4 BLD, 5x5 BLD and Multi BLD, point 1 is pretty much yes for all 3 of them. For point 2, however, I suppose it gets a bit iffy. However, I don't think that physically, setting these up at competitions is much more of a hassle than it is to set up events such as 3x3 FMC. Timewise, that may be a different story, but I'm pretty sure that if 10 people wanted to do 4x4 BLD at a competition, they would be able to make time for that, so for me, time is not that big of an issue with considering removal of events,

This all seems reasonable, right? Hopefully I am within reason… I know that people will bombard this thread if I am not! haha

Erik said:

1. The big BLD events stand too far away from the original "solve a Rubik's cube" concept on which all of speedcubing is build. To me 4/5/multi BLD is exactly the same as 4x4 OH and 5x5 FMC would be: a side event of a side event. Or: a variant of a variant. Have a look at the chart in the attachment to see what I mean with this. We don't hold any other side events of side events except for BLD.
View attachment 4244

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I couldn't get the attachment, but I get the picture.

The problem I have with this is that especially multi-BLD, but also 4x4BLD and 5x5BLD barely have anything to do with speedcubing anymore. It is for the biggest part, just a memory sport. All other events we have don't require memorizing states of cubes, but are just 'fast-puzzling'. Why are we doing memory sports at a speedcubing competition? Don't misunderstand me, I think it is HIGHLY impressive to memorize 20 cubes BLD in an hour, but it does not have much to do with cubing anymore. If you can indeed memorize and solve 20 cubes in an hour, alternatively you could really try to make a career in memory sports!

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To address what you said about how BLD events have begun to become merely memory sports, not speedcubing events, I would heartily disagree. The memory aspect, while it is (I would imagine) huge in the big cube BLD events, does not overshadow the speed aspect. It, after all, is still timed, so you still have to solve quickly in order to get NR, CR, WR. There is not much that BLD events take away from the idea of quick-solving.

Also, what I said at the beginning of this post goes for what you said, too. Variations of variations, as long as they are reasonable, are fine with me.

2. Now the fact itself that we have a variant of a variant is not very good, but now think about it: we have 3 of them (not including 3x3 BLD). Why 3? It's not like we just have 4x4 OH, but also have 5x5 OH and let's say megaminx OH as well. This doesn't make much sense to me.

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What I said earlier goes for this. Why is this idea so ludicrous? They're all reasonable events.

I feel like this is an instance where you just say a point and it seems reasonable that the point should stand for itself. But I don't really get the reason behind it, so I'm just going to ignore this one.

3. Also: the events are too much the same so they don't add anything to the skills that are required. Almost everyone who is good at 5x5 BLD is also good at 4x4 BLD, and the same goes for multi BLD. Yes BLD does add something to speedcubing, but why have 3 variants of this variant, which are not even much different? The memo technique you can use for all 3 events is just the same. The difference between 4x4 BLD and 5x5 BLD is for the biggest part just the amount of information you have to memorize.
Now yes, you could also argue 7x7 doesn't add anything either. On this I would partly agree. Yes 7x7 and 6x6 and 5x5 are very much the same, to be honest I wouldn't be bothered at all if 7x7 was removed as well. The difference though, is that 7x7 is just a variant of a 3x3 and not a variant of a variant (because that would be 7x7 FMC or OH for example).

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As I said earlier, a variant of a variant, as long as it is within reason, is fine. Your point about how the events are very similar is valid, but then we would have to apply that to the standard cube events, so your point can't work here. And as I already said, there is not much of a difference when you compare the issue of the similarities of 5x5 through 7x7 and the issue of the similarities of 4/5/Multi BLD, since variants of variations are fine to me.

Other reasons:
- the events take up a lot of time and complicate time-schedules heavily, especially when all 3 events are held. Mostly you can do your attempts whenever you want throughout the whole weekend, but this still requires a lot of organizing hassle. You have to find a judge, you have to talk to the organizer about the fact that you might have to change your group for other events. If you decide to NOT hold the events on the side, you are using up so much time on the main stage that it steals unreasonably much time of more popular events.

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First: Who wouldn't have the events on the side? That's just selfish. They should be forced to do them on the side; if they want their friends to watch, make them come to the side room.

Besides that, I guess the time issue is kind of iffy here… So I will say that if a large majority says that they don't want to have 4/5/Multi anymore, considering that plus the time issues, I wouldn't object to having them removed. This is the only point where I will cave, though.

- the events are not very popular: now I don't have access to the database, but from experience I would say only a handfull of people actually compete in some of the 3 events (not to mention all 3 events) when they are held. It happens a lot that for example nobody even succeeds on a 5x5 BLD and the podium is empty...

- the events are too hard: this especially goes for 5x5 BLD. 3x3 is already quite hard, 4x4 is managable, but 5x5 is really difficult for some people.

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I addressed popularity earlier. As for difficulty, this point will have to be put together with unpopularity to be valid.

In short: 3 big BLD events are too much. Ideally I would like to see all of them go, but I understand a significant amount of people would not be happy with that. I think it's very reasonable and agreeable that at least one of these events would be removed. For those people who have fun at memorizing large quantities of information there would still be other events left in which they can use their skill. Now to which event should go: I don't really care much. Ideally Multi-BLD because that event requires the most memorizing and least amount of creativity in the way you solve it, with 5x5BLD you at least have 2 new types of pieces you have to learn how to solve, whereas multi-BLD is exactly 3x3 BLD times x.

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I will not be one to decide which one will go. I don't really feel that any of them absolutely need to go at this moment. If the community decides that one of them has to go, I guess multi-BLD would probably be the one, for the reasons that you said, I guess.

I am interested in the opinion of the rest of the community and look forward to reading your answers. If you want to argue pro or con, please use logical reasoning and explain why you agree or disagree with my reasons, or your own well-elaborated reasons and don't start throwing in comments like: "we have to keep all events, because I think it is impressive" or "we should get rid of all events, because people who memorize that much info scare me" or "we should not remove 4x4 BLD, because I have the NR".

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I hope I satisfied that here

EDIT: People have brought up ways that you can take care of the time issue (time caps, lunchtime, etc.), so unless something is brought up which challenges those solutions, I think that the time issue shouldn't be that big of a problem.

EDIT:

sneze2r said:

]

1. The ranking is dominated by Maskow. Now no one can reach WR except him, so this event is pointless
2. Multiblind is stupid

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Uh…*Who says that no one can beat him? Also, who says that an event absolutely has to be about the WR? Why can't it be a challenge to do well for, say, NR or CR? Or the best among your group of friends at a competition? There's no reason something has to just be for WR. Also, thanks so much for telling me about all of the ways that Multiblind is a stupid event. Look at all of those list items.

Also, I realize that this post was huge. Sorry. :|

1. I would have to disagree with your argument that "4/5/multi BLD is exactly the same as 4x4 OH and 5x5 FMC". Like Ollie said, solving 4BLD and 5BLD are quite quite different than 3BLD. BigBLD requires you to be more accurate in blindsolving and it also requires you to solve a different set of pieces (centers). For something like 4x4 OH, it would only require you to practice the event over and over again.

2. I believe that all the BLD events (3/4/5/MBLD) are actually quite different. As someone who takes blindsolving seriously, I approach them with a different mentality. 3BLD is like a 100 meter dash. The type of memory involved in 3BLD is short term (yolo) memory. For bigBLD and MBLD, I use more of a medium range and long term memory. I'm pretty sure most if not all world class blindsolvers would agree with me on this point. You also suggested that we should just compete in memory competitions instead. That is a valid point, but I do not see any deliberate reason to remove the events.

3. You say that these events are too much the same (4BLD people are good at 5BLD too, etc.), and yes this can also be applied to 6x6 and 7x7 which you already mentioned. Your reasoning is because this is a variant of a variant. Yes that is true, but why should we remove it because it's "too far from the original 3x3 concept"?. I believe that these events are relevant enough to speedcubing that they should remain.


Your other reasons:

"the events take up a lot of time and complicate time-schedules heavily, especially when all 3 events are held."

This is usually due to poor organization/time management/over ambitious event list in local competitions. I don't think this is a problem in big competitions such as nationals and worlds.


"the events are not very popular"

Yes, that may be true. But why remove an event just because it's not popular? Also, the database only shows all the people who have obtained official successes.


"In short: 3 big BLD events are too much. Ideally I would like to see all of them go, but I understand a significant amount of people would not be happy with that. I think it's very reasonable and agreeable that at least one of these events would be removed. For those people who have fun at memorizing large quantities of information there would still be other events left in which they can use their skill. Now to which event should go: I don't really care much. Ideally Multi-BLD because that event requires the most memorizing and least amount of creativity in the way you solve it, with 5x5BLD you at least have 2 new types of pieces you have to learn how to solve, whereas multi-BLD is exactly 3x3 BLD times x."

When you say "which event should go: I don't really care much", no offense, but it seems to me that you don't understand or value the differences in bigBLD/MBLD to care which ones stay and which ones go. You also say that multi-BLD is exactly 3x3 BLD times x. I strongly disagree with that. As someone who takes MBLD seriously, it is not as simple as that. There is a lot of skill and technique in memorizing that many cubes, it is not as blunt as just memorizing x number of cubes and then solving x number of cubes. Every cube is approached differently. If I were to do a 25 MBLD cube attempt, I would use long term memory for the first 12, mid-range memory for the next 8, and short-term for the last 5. There are also other techniques in memo/review such as roman rooms/journey/etc that play a big part in the success.

Erik said:

1. The big BLD events stand too far away from the original "solve a Rubik's cube" concept on which all of speedcubing is build. To me 4/5/multi BLD is exactly the same as 4x4 OH and 5x5 FMC would be: a side event of a side event. Or: a variant of a variant. Have a look at the chart in the attachment to see what I mean with this. We don't hold any other side events of side events except for BLD.
View attachment 4244

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Well, Pyraminx, Megaminx and clock aren't even cubes anymore so they are even further away from the "original concept" than BLD solving IMO

The problem I have with this is that especially multi-BLD, but also 4x4BLD and 5x5BLD barely have anything to do with speedcubing anymore. It is for the biggest part, just a memory sport. All other events we have don't require memorizing states of cubes, but are just 'fast-puzzling'. Why are we doing memory sports at a speedcubing competition? Don't misunderstand me, I think it is HIGHLY impressive to memorize 20 cubes BLD in an hour, but it does not have much to do with cubing anymore. If you can indeed memorize and solve 20 cubes in an hour, alternatively you could really try to make a career in memory sports!

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At top level 4BLD and 5BLD need speedcubing skills AND memorizing skills. Memorizing is only ~50% of total solve time so the other half is speedcubing skills.

Also do you think we should remove FMC as well because that doesn't need any SPEED to be fast so it isn't really SPEEDcubing.

2. Now the fact itself that we have a variant of a variant is not very good, but now think about it: we have 3 of them (not including 3x3 BLD). Why 3? It's not like we just have 4x4 OH, but also have 5x5 OH and let's say megaminx OH as well. This doesn't make much sense to me.

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In OH you can just use exactly the same method you would normally use so it doesn't really make sense to have many variants of that, but in BLD you need to learn a completely new method to solve the cube and in 3x3 you don't have center pieces to solve which is why we need at least 4bld or 5bld. And another thing is that ANYONE who is able to solve 4x4 OH will be able to solve 5x5,6x6 and 7x7 OH, but in bld if you can solve 4x4 that doesn't mean you can automatically solve 5x5.

3. Also: the events are too much the same so they don't add anything to the skills that are required. Almost everyone who is good at 5x5 BLD is also good at 4x4 BLD, and the same goes for multi BLD. Yes BLD does add something to speedcubing, but why have 3 variants of this variant, which are not even much different? The memo technique you can use for all 3 events is just the same. The difference between 4x4 BLD and 5x5 BLD is for the biggest part just the amount of information you have to memorize.

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That is true but why do we need 5x5 and 6x6 and 7x7 then? Or feet and OH. You just use the same method to solve anyway so nothing new is added.

Now yes, you could also argue 7x7 doesn't add anything either. On this I would partly agree. Yes 7x7 and 6x6 and 5x5 are very much the same, to be honest I wouldn't be bothered at all if 7x7 was removed as well. The difference though, is that 7x7 is just a variant of a 3x3 and not a variant of a variant (because that would be 7x7 FMC or OH for example).

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This part was already answered before in this post.

- the events take up a lot of time and complicate time-schedules heavily, especially when all 3 events are held. Mostly you can do your attempts whenever you want throughout the whole weekend, but this still requires a lot of organizing hassle. You have to find a judge, you have to talk to the organizer about the fact that you might have to change your group for other events. If you decide to NOT hold the events on the side, you are using up so much time on the main stage that it steals unreasonably much time of more popular events.

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Big cubes take a lot of time too so we should just remove them too. Yes this is a problem, but there is an easy fix: TIME LIMITS...

- the events are not very popular: now I don't have access to the database, but from experience I would say only a handfull of people actually compete in some of the 3 events (not to mention all 3 events) when they are held. It happens a lot that for example nobody even succeeds on a 5x5 BLD and the podium is empty...

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That's not so much because BLD isn't popular, but because BigBLD is not easy to learn. And at least I (and I would think many others) enjoy the challenge these events bring to the table. I mean if anyone practices for a week they can solve 5x5 normally but I doubt they could learn to solve it BLD in a week. There is an awesome sense of accomplishment every time you raise your blindfold and see a solved cube.

- the events are too hard: this especially goes for 5x5 BLD. 3x3 is already quite hard, 4x4 is managable, but 5x5 is really difficult for some people.

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It is good that we have "easy" events (2x2, pyra, 3x3...) for younger/newer solvers but I think we also need something that challenges more experienced solvers too. And these events do just that. Why should everything be easy?

I think 5x5 BLD should be removed and maybe multiblind aswell, or at least limit the time to half an hour. Personally I only know how to solve a 3x3 blind and it gives you an other way to solve the cube. Therefore i think blind is constructive to the speedcubing world. Ofcourse, no one uses blind methods in the normal events (only haiyan comes to my mind). 4x4 BLD gives a bit more commutators knowledge etcera, so that can stay on for me aswell. 5x5 BLD is just a repeat of 4x4 Blind and most of the time these events are held in a small room next to the normal compete area. Therefore spectators who are not cubers (or media) won't take a notice of these events.

As far for MultiBLD, sometimes my father comes to a competition with me on a saturday and most of the time MultiBLD is scheduled in the morning. He finds MultiBLD the most impressive event of all. It takes an hour though, which in my mind, is too much! If the time limit would be set at like half an hour or even a quarter it would be fine by me.

I can't see a point of removing any event. If You don't want to provide any event just don't include it in schedule. Simple as that.
There are many people in the world who are interested in this events and if the organiser wish he should have a possibility not duty to provide this kinds of events.

Thank you all for your extensive answers. I think it's really nice that we can have a serious discussion with good reasoning instead of the general "I don't like it, because it's stupid" arguments...

Some interesting things I'd like to answer to (I can't answer everything )

To Ollie:
Firstly I am glad you agree with me on Multi BLD. With that I think we are already on the same page. Maybe this is also a good opportunity to explain my personal stands here. Personally I don't like any of the bigger BLD events, but on the other hand I can see that not all of them will go and it might not be necessary either.
I agree 4x4 BLD does add something to 3x3 BLD, though not that much. I think 5x5 BLD only adds marginally to 4x4 BLD (there is barely something different other than midges and edge-centers). I think Multi-BLD has absolutely nothing to add if 5x5 BLD is also an event. Nice that we also agree on 7x7 and 6x6.

Slinky:
I like the way you are thinking. It is very structured and logical. Your main question: "is it within reason" is a bit too vague for me personally. To me the criteria for a side event are the following:
- should have something to do with speedcubing. That means it has to be related to the Rubik's cube and in solving it.
- should be popular
- should be easy to held at competitions (not take up too much time, easy to organize etc.)
- should provide an extra dimension in skill or way of solving

I really don't understand how you could call multi-BLD still speedcubing and not memory sport btw. For 4x4 this may apply, for 5x5 in lesser amount as well, but multi... absolutely not. Like I said: 7x7 would definitely be a candidate as well.
Selfish is definitely the wrong way to describe not organizing those events. They do require a significant amount of extra time and effort from the organizer and require a seperate room which might not be available at the venue.

Tim:
Like I said before: I agree that in itself 4 and 5 BLD add something to 3 BLD (though not very much). But I really don't see how 4BLD adds to 5BLD or how 5BLD adds to 4BLD. Multi-BLD is even worse.

If an event is unpopular, that means not many people would compete at it in comp (which is the case). This just takes time away from other events, or requires an unreasonable big amount of time for organizers. Of course this can be overcome, but it definitely is something to think about.

About your last comment: I might sound a bit blunt here, but I do know what I am talking about, competed in all events and am very well aware of the techniques used in the events. Still I have yet to see a good reason why 4 AND 5 AND Multi should all be kept. By saying Multi is 3BLD times x I don't mean that it's as easy, but that it doesn't add much to the problem solving you have to do compared to any of the other events. For example: in 5BLD you also have to memorize more information and be accurate, but you at least have to deal with new pieces.

Tseitsei:
Pyraminx and Megaminx are just variants of the normal cube. Take a look at my scheme. I agree clock is a different thing.
I am sorry, but the rest of your reasoning is kind of bad (some things I have already discussed those issues in my original post).
Please remember that I am not saying all events should be removed, but that 3 of them are just too many.

I am not enjoying writing this post. My mind is torn. It seems to weird to speak against events that I held such a different opinion on before. When I stopped competing in these bld events, this also coincided with my growing involvement on the organisation side of things. That has no doubt contributed to my change of opinion.

Believe me when I say this: As an organiser and delegate, one of my biggest wishes, if not the biggest, is that 5bld and Multibld were not official events.

My opinion is remove 5bld and Multi. Keep 4bld

I hate to disappoint people, especially in the UK where we have a culture of holding most if not all events and have many all-rounders and many big-blders. That's the reason we still hold these events - no because I want to hold them, but because I don't want to make people sad and don't want to receive a torrent of complaints about not holding them.

Now for the explicit reasons:

They are long events
Yes, I know FM takes as long, but that doesn't mean this can't be used a reason
They have a terrible success rate
They give off the feeling that we are wasting everyone's time, especially the judges'. I can get the statistics later if I need to, but I guess 5bld is <20% and multi probably 50%ish.
5bld adds about 5% on top of what 4bld already has
Yes, my memorisation techniques were a little different once I fine-tuned them, but essentially it's the same, with longer concentration periods. I mean, when I learnt 4bld I got a 5bld success at my first attempt the next day. That's not really a Mt. Everest imo. It's just a chance to show how good your concentration is.
Multi adds 0% on top of what 3bld already has
In terms of speedcubing that is, not memorisation. The best 3blders should all have a very high success rate anyway, so I don't think the accuracy statement has much going for it.

Yes people will complain, and I will understand why because I would have gone crazy if this had been done a few years ago. But I hope that they can see the rationale behind it. I also hate seeing events removed because it makes the database messy

As a last word, I'm not that bothered if they stay. We won't be holding them at every competition, and probably will impose stricter time limits on bigbld.

'2. Now the fact itself that we have a variant of a variant is not very good, but now think about it: we have 3 of them (not including 3x3 BLD). Why 3? It's not like we just have 4x4 OH, but also have 5x5 OH and let's say megaminx OH as well. This doesn't make much sense to me.'

I would argue that these cases are not equivalent. 4OH and 5OH add only a slight difficulty in dexterity - anyone who can solve these cubes two handed, and can solve a 3x3 one handed, can given enough time solve these cubes one handed using exactly the same method. This does not hold true for 4 and 5 BLD, so I think that these events are justified as they each require new solving techniques.
I cannot say the same about multi, hence me picking that one as the most suitable candidate for removal. If you can solve one cube blind, then you can solve many using the same method. This is the only reason that I have attempted multi in comp

(Also, I presume grzegorz' arguments are not serious given who he is, just saying)

kinch2002 said:

My opinion is remove 5bld and Multi. Keep 4bld

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Thanks for your honest answer. I think 5bld would maybe be a better choice of the 3 to not remove, because it offers the most difference to 3BLD while at the same time requiring the bulk-info you have to memorize at multi. It would however be a bit odd to have this gap between 3bld and 5bld and 5bld is slower and more difficult than 4bld...

Erik said:

Thanks for your honest answer. I think 5bld would maybe be a better choice of the 3 to not remove, because it offers the most difference to 3BLD while at the same time requiring the bulk-info you have to memorize at multi. It would however be a bit odd to have this gap between 3bld and 5bld and 5bld is slower and more difficult than 4bld...

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You speak exactly what my thoughts were about that