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Is ZZ an objectively worse method than Roux and CFOP?

CarterK

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I don’t think people like my logic... ok, you guys give me what you think for roux.

Ok, I'm going to try and compare roux and zz:

Blocks: You have a lot more freedom with roux, and I'm pretty sure it has a bit less movecount, each block can be pretty much regripless.

EO: The difference here is that you either do EO on all edges at the start or you EO on some of the edges with M and U moves. The MU EO is faster but that makes sense as there are less edges to orient.

Corners: CMLL algs are about 10 moves, OCLL are a little less but you don't permute the corners.

Let me know if I forgot anything.
 

_zoux

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Heise is the better method then:

4 squares: 1 sec
Orient edges: 1.2 sec
AB3C: 1.4 sec
Last 3 corners: 2 sec
5.6 sec theoretical average.

Brb switching to Heise. Am I doing it right?
I don't get it
 

_zoux

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You can just make up any arbitrary numbers you want to get the "theoretical solve yime"
I think it was more about comparing roux and zz
Here's my roux and zz comparing:

EOLine = FB
duh

55% of zzf2l = SB
start of zzf2l is very efficient and good, like ~8-11 moves for the FB/SQSQ or etc, and other for pair/DR

CMLL = Finish ZZF2L
pretty self explanatory

ZBLL = LSE
Both are the same movecount, but even LSE has more looks than ZBLL and a bit slower on execution they still around the same stats since ZBLL takes more time to recognise
 

CarterK

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I think it was more about comparing roux and zz
Here's my roux and zz comparing:

EOLine = FB
duh

55% of zzf2l = SB
start of zzf2l is very efficient and good, like ~8-11 moves for the FB/SQSQ or etc, and other for pair/DR

CMLL = Finish ZZF2L
pretty self explanatory

ZBLL = LSE
Both are the same movecount, but even LSE has more looks than ZBLL and a bit slower on execution they still around the same stats since ZBLL takes more time to recognise

I don't get it, how do the first 3 comparisons work?

Also, can you tell me the average movecounts of each ZZ step?
 

CarterK

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Ok, Roux is like 9 16 10 13 I think. As for what you said:

EOline/FB

Very similar movecount, but FB is more fingertricky so That gets an edge

55% of zzf2l = SB
Sure ok

CMLL = Finish ZZF2L
CMLL is faster, as the algs can be drilled to be really fast.

ZBLL = LSE
Sure I guess, similar enough, No regrips or pauses for LSE but worse TPS than ZBLL for some cases.
 

Elo13

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From that, I’d say that they’re both as viable as each other. What roux gets in step 1, it loses in step 2, then whatnot gains in step 3, it loses in step 4.

I mostly agree, but I don't see ZBLL being faster than LSE.

According to some HARCS analysis by Teoidus and diPalma the average movecount of speed-optimal ZBLL is 14.5. When comparing to LSE, I think it's fair to compare to knowing at least a decent amount of EOLRb. Optimal EOLR+4b movecount is ~8.3 and EOLRb is ~7.8. With about half of EOLRb that would be around 8. Add 4.5 moves for 4c and you get 12.5 for LSE.

I don't know this for sure, but ZBLL most likely has a longer recognition pause. Without ever actively practicing it, I can predict EOLR maybe half the time. With practice it can most likely be done all the time, so the only pause you would have is recognizing the corners (actually that could possibly also be predicted). I'm sure ZBLL can also be partially predicted during LS, but it still will most likely require a longer pause.

ZBLL does have a higher max TPS. However, due to current hardware having very good slices and LSE being 100% regripless I don't think the difference is significant enough to make up for the longer pause and higher movecount. I don't really have any numbers for this though, so if someone could do that it would be nice.
 

Burrito

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Most people say too many people use CFOP and ZZ might not be able to catch up. And from what I've seen people who use it have a hard time having consistency.
When I switched to ZZ, I went from getting 14 sec solves -- and then a 26 second one to getting mostly 17s and 18s, with the occasional 21 sec or 13-15 sec solve
 
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True, but part of that is probably from not as much practice and not using all possible techniques zz requires to reach a higher level. I think zz isn't quite as good as roux and cfop, but may be better than cfop for oh. Also Using zbll and other things would really help your speed.
 
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