Stefan
Legend
Aw, spoil sport. I'm sure he would've gotten it himself. He was already aware that it makes a difference physically.
4LLL vs 3LLL -> Worth the Effort?
- Thread starter Cuber1974
- Start date
Well I really love Badmephisto's Algs for 2 look PLL as it's pretty easy to remember.
I doubt I'm ever going to see sub 15 second averages (I'm an older cuber - mid 30s and my reflexes just aint what they used to be *grins*) - but I'll just see how I go with 4LLL for now.
I guess you get to a point where you know your Perms so well it's just a natural progression to go the whole hog.
Oh btw, I noticed on Bad's page he has his E Perm as follows :
x' [(R U' R') D (R U R')] u2 [(R' U R) D (R' U' R)]
I get the feeling that this is actually a few turns short as I have to make a few extra turns to complete after performing this alg, can anyone confirm?
I doubt I'm ever going to see sub 15 second averages (I'm an older cuber - mid 30s and my reflexes just aint what they used to be *grins*) - but I'll just see how I go with 4LLL for now.
I guess you get to a point where you know your Perms so well it's just a natural progression to go the whole hog.
Oh btw, I noticed on Bad's page he has his E Perm as follows :
x' [(R U' R') D (R U R')] u2 [(R' U R) D (R' U' R)]
I get the feeling that this is actually a few turns short as I have to make a few extra turns to complete after performing this alg, can anyone confirm?
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Stefan
Legend
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Stefan
Legend
You mean Ron? Yeah, he is. And here are some really old and young chaps:
http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/statistics.php#1
Not as fast as Ron, but not bad, either.
So the savings are this stage of my development probably are not going to be that huge. Mind you, the 2 Look algs all appear in 1 look anyway, so it might not be that big of a deal.
At *some* point I'll probably develop it further, but I think my F2L atm requires much more help. It's 100% intuitive at present, but slow as hell - between 30 secs and a full minute for this step.
So at the moment, shaving 3 seconds or so from my last layer times isn't really a priority - but it's good to know for future progress.
Thanks again for your help!
Wow. That's awesome! Maybe there's some hope for me yet! I guess Ron is using full Fridrich to get such times?
Urgh, maybe I'm just lazy and making excuses then
But then again, I've only been actively cubing 4 months, how long has Ron been going I wonder? Gives me some inspiration though!Oh really? Wow, then I must be doing something wrong then because I always need at least a mid level double slice and an R (or R'? Can't recall - cube is at home atm) to get into the final 2LPLL alg after completing an E-Perm.
Maybe I should do a You Tube clip to show what I mean because it comes up pretty much every time for me.
Weird!
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Stefan
Legend
Enter the alg here and watch:
http://thearufam.brinkster.net/cube/wrapplet.asp
Just remove the square brackets cause that marks the enclosed part as comment for that applet.
http://alg.garron.us is easier to remember and more versatile, but also a bit harder to work with. Anyway, try them. I always use them to check algs before I post them and often use them when I'm too lazy to check out someone else's alg with a real cube.
http://thearufam.brinkster.net/cube/wrapplet.asp
Just remove the square brackets cause that marks the enclosed part as comment for that applet.
http://alg.garron.us is easier to remember and more versatile, but also a bit harder to work with. Anyway, try them. I always use them to check algs before I post them and often use them when I'm too lazy to check out someone else's alg with a real cube.
Is there a program out there where I can put up a pre-defined scramble and then plug in the alg and watch the result?
Maybe it might help if I describe what I'm doing...
Once I get into 2 Look OLL I'll start with Cross and then do the Corners for the top layer.
Then as you go into the PLL step, you're looking for two situations which dictate how the rest plays out.
To start with the Corner Perms :
If you can find a pair of headlights, you put them to the back and then do :
x [(R' U R') D2] [(R U' R') D2] R2 x'
This will basically give a situation where you can use one of the last 4 algs for the Edge Perms.
If you don't get any headlights, you instead go :
x' R U' R' D R U R' u2 R' U R D R' U' R x'
Which for me ends up about 3 turns from getting to a situation similar to the one above (I think it's usually a mid double slice and then R or R' to get to the same point above).
So I can only assume I'm either misreading it, or doing something wrong - but can't bloody find out where it is (but I reckon it's something very simple that you'll laugh at!)
If I could perhaps find a demo tool online that allows me a pre-scramble of my own design and then will demonstrate the alg I'm talking about, that will make things a lot clearer I think.
Maybe it might help if I describe what I'm doing...
Once I get into 2 Look OLL I'll start with Cross and then do the Corners for the top layer.
Then as you go into the PLL step, you're looking for two situations which dictate how the rest plays out.
To start with the Corner Perms :
If you can find a pair of headlights, you put them to the back and then do :
x [(R' U R') D2] [(R U' R') D2] R2 x'
This will basically give a situation where you can use one of the last 4 algs for the Edge Perms.
If you don't get any headlights, you instead go :
x' R U' R' D R U R' u2 R' U R D R' U' R x'
Which for me ends up about 3 turns from getting to a situation similar to the one above (I think it's usually a mid double slice and then R or R' to get to the same point above).
So I can only assume I'm either misreading it, or doing something wrong - but can't bloody find out where it is (but I reckon it's something very simple that you'll laugh at!)
If I could perhaps find a demo tool online that allows me a pre-scramble of my own design and then will demonstrate the alg I'm talking about, that will make things a lot clearer I think.
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mcciff2112
Veteran
It's only worth it if you care about serious improvement. Some people just like solving the cube, while others want to do it fast. If you want to do it fast, then it is definitely worth it.
As far as how much time, I would say 2-5 seconds depending on the time of execution for your current PLL algs.
eastamazonantidote
Veteran
I'm going to agree with Stefan on the 1-2 seconds. It is much faster to recognize the 2-look vs. 1-look (especially immediately after learning, which is what we're talking about), plus the time spent on learning the algs "wastes" valuable practice with recognition.
Also remember that just learning all the PLLs (and relearning or retouching your old ones) will almost surely make you turn faster, as you trust your hands more and learn to believe in the algorithm. So while he may take 2 weeks to learn the whole 1-look, in that time his times will have dropped, say, from 45 seconds to about 40 seconds. That leads us to believe that it was a 5 second difference, when in fact it was just the natural progression.
But is the 1-look worth learning? Most certainly. As I said, it builds your turning speed and your belief in algorithms, making other parts of your solve easier.
Also remember that just learning all the PLLs (and relearning or retouching your old ones) will almost surely make you turn faster, as you trust your hands more and learn to believe in the algorithm. So while he may take 2 weeks to learn the whole 1-look, in that time his times will have dropped, say, from 45 seconds to about 40 seconds. That leads us to believe that it was a 5 second difference, when in fact it was just the natural progression.
But is the 1-look worth learning? Most certainly. As I said, it builds your turning speed and your belief in algorithms, making other parts of your solve easier.
Stefan
Legend
Like I said already, I'm sure you will easily save that much time just by getting better at 2-look PLL.
Check out the two I mentioned in the post right before yours (guess you were typing at the same time and missed it).
rjohnson_8ball
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I don't need any extra twists with his E-perm. My Eperm is a variation of his:
x' (R U' R') D (R U R') D' (R U R') D (R U' R') D'
which is not too hard for me during BLD.
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ARGH I AM AN IDIOT!!!!!!!
Rookie mistake - I figured it out.
Do an E-Perm with a U2 instead of a u2 in the middle and see where you end up.... that's where I was stuffing up.
I would look like I'm just a moron who can't bloody read notation.
*hides in shame*
Rookie mistake - I figured it out.
Do an E-Perm with a U2 instead of a u2 in the middle and see where you end up.... that's where I was stuffing up.
I would look like I'm just a moron who can't bloody read notation.
*hides in shame*
Stefan
Legend
Didn't the applets help? U2 vs u2 is what I had suspected and the applets should've made you aware of it.
brunson
Veteran
That's called an A-perm. More specifically, a clockwise A-Perm.
If that's the only corner cycle you know, you'll have to do it twice half the time you have to do it at all. That puts a whole lot more padding in Stefan's calculations for how much time you'd save by learning more algs. You should learn a CCW A-perm and recognize them as different cases. Right now you don't even have a 4LLL.
Really, you should just keep adding PLLs to your repertoire, one at a time, making sure each one is firmly ingrained before moving to the next.
BTW, I'm another ancient cuber. 42, but not nearly as fast as Ton.
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